Is this ROCD or Relationship Anxiety? (ft. Sarah Yudkin)
Kiyomi: [00:00:00] Hi, everyone, I'm so excited to be on today's episode. It's episode number 33 and I have a really, really special guest that I've been wanting to speak to and talk to for a long time. Many of you might actually know of her already. She does relationship anxiety work and she and I actually spoke for the first time last month. We just had such a good conversation, and I just really wanted to get her on to this podcast episode. So Sarah Yudkin, welcome we're so excited to have you in the Awaken into Love podcast.
Sarah: [00:00:31] Thank you so much. I've been excited about this.
Kiyomi: [00:00:34] I'm so happy that you're here. So you're living in Sweden. I know you and I talked a little bit and you have been doing. How long have you been doing relationship anxiety work?
Sarah: [00:00:44] So, last year in 2021 was the first full year that I had started working with clients, but before then it was about a year that I was really deep into the knowledge of what is going on here. How can I learn more about this? So it's really been in the last few years for me, like a whole 180 because my life completely shifted. I was living in Virginia, had a corporate job and now I'm living in Sweden and I'm getting to help people with something that I went through, and it just feels so much more rewarding.
Kiyomi: [00:01:18] So how did you start your journey with everything on? Because I know your main platform is on Instagram, right? I think a lot of people follow you too. Do you have a TikTok too or you're mainly on Instagram? Both?
Sarah: [00:01:28] I do.
Kiyomi: [00:01:29] Yeah, I know you post on Instagram. How did you kind of start your journey? Was it a thing where you were starting to just talk about relationship anxiety because you experienced it? And all of a sudden you're like, Oh, I can really help these people? Like, how did you start this?
Sarah: [00:01:44] Yes. Well, before I had any idea of helping people, I needed help myself, and I think many of us can relate to that, and I was having a very hard time with my relationship anxiety. And then it kind of came to a peak during the beginning of the pandemic because Nate, my boyfriend, and I were actually long-distance, so we had never lived together. And then in the pandemic, we moved in together and I had been put on furlough from my job and didn't have any work. And so paired with the stress of everything going on in the world, I had nothing to do except just be up in my head all day. And it was our first time living together. So being, you know, right around me all the time, I felt like he was kind of my target for some of my intrusive thoughts. So at the time, I kind of had a breaking point, and I just recently wrote about this on my blog, actually where the thoughts became so real. And finally, one day I burst and I was like, I don't know if I love you the same way anymore. I just don't know what's going on with me. I hate that I'm feeling this way, but this is what's going on. And he met me with so much compassion and love. And like many partners tend to do, I was just like, Why is how is he being so nice? It just didn't even make sense to me being in such a bad headspace. So from that moment when he was just so supportive, like unconditionally supportive, which I know that word can be a little bit of a relationship of anxiety trigger when we're like, What does unconditional love mean? But long story short, I realized I had to learn more about what was going on, and I had to do something about it. So funny enough, my story started with a perfectionist belief that if I could just be better at relationships and I'm doing air quotes for those who are listening to this, but if I could just be better at relationships, then I'll be better and not as anxious. So that kind of led me on a journey to really understand relationship dynamics and how relationships are. And then I decided just to start sharing more about it, not in a way to help others, but just to share my story and see what happened.
Kiyomi: [00:03:44] It's amazing how we can share something, and we might not know at the time how many people resonate with it, where we're just kind of sharing our journey that we're going through so intimately with ourselves. And then afterward, we're like, Whoa, a lot of people around me are resonating, and I feel like recently it's been. I don't know if it's more of a common thing. I think there's a lot of stuff with social media and comparison and everything really heightening the anxiety. But I'm feeling like a lot more people are starting to become aware of it, you know, versus before. And that can be like a humbling, really interesting experience. But I'm sure you've probably been seeing that within your journey too. Like, Wow, there's a lot of people who can resonate with my story or who understand that I'm sure that's also been somewhat comforting as well in your journey as well.
Sarah: [00:04:37] Yeah. And you know, it never gets old getting a message. I'm sure you feel the same being like, Wow, I never thought of things this way. So thank you for just sharing your experience because I resonate with it. And you know, for me, the decision to actually move into a coaching space as I found out he could go to Sweden and for his job. And at the time I still wasn't back at my corporate job and my blog had just started getting somewhat of people, you know, knowing what it was and people asked, How did you learn all this stuff and could you help me with this? And I think it was just serendipitous events that gave me the idea of how people are asking for help with this. And I don't have a job and we're maybe moving to a whole new country. Why couldn't this be something that I take a little bit more seriously? So I think it was because people resonated with the message that I even had the idea that I could do anything like this.
Kiyomi: [00:05:32] It's amazing. It's amazing how it kind of like all starts to then like a ripple-like before. At least for me, I didn't even think that my experience with ROCD and anxiety would make me be where I am right now. You know, like a couple of years down the line, we started in 2016, 2017. But where we are now and everything like that, it's crazy. But I think that we need this, this information more than ever. And so I'm really also excited for you, you know, to be doing this work and everything. And so I think that one thing that I really wanted to talk about today, which I think is just such an important topic that I feel like we don't really see, I've never really seen people talk too much about it is the whole idea of ROCD versus like relationship anxiety. And I know when you're doing your work and you're talking about it, you're speaking in terms of, you're saying relationship anxiety, would you be able to tell me or tell the audience a little bit in your background as to why the term relationship anxiety resonated with you versus like ROCD? Because there's a lot of people who kind of get confused about that, and that's something I really want to kind of hone in on today.
Sarah: [00:06:38] Yeah, absolutely, and in all honesty, before I had come across the concept of relationship anxiety or obsessively doubting the relationship, I had never really been exposed too much about OCD. Like I had heard people misusing the term before saying I'm very OCD with my cleaning, for example, which I know is a pretty harmful thing to say to someone who has the OCD diagnosis or resonates with having OCD. But to me, I mean, my mom has been on anxiety medication before, and so like, I knew that anxiety was something that had kind of either genetically been passed on to me or just from just being around her. I think I resonate with the term anxiety and I just never really like, I said, being exposed too much about OCD. So it wasn't top of mind. I don't think I resonate with the phrase. And I do think that there are people that I work with that do resonate much more with the term ROCD because they've experienced other OCD-like symptoms or tendencies. And again, I could be misusing some of this language. So I want to acknowledge that. And if someone wants to point that out to me or correct me, I'm really open to hearing more about that because I'm the first to know that I am not an OCD expert. So that's kind of why I gravitate more towards the phrase relationship anxiety, and I had come across the wisdom of the anxiety by Sheryl Paul, and the term in that book was relationship anxiety. So it kind of was something that just clicked with me, and it felt like my experience really to a T. And so once I heard of the term ROCD, I kind of almost, you know, grouped the two as maybe cousins or friends that had very similar tendencies. So that's kind of my experience but I'd love to hear yours and what led you to gravitate towards ROCD?
Kiyomi: [00:08:30] I think it's something that's so important for you and I to kind of discuss that I think that the work that we do is really based around empowering an individual and having them feel empowered versus disempowered, empowered. I think when I worked in the mental health field, I started working the mental health field when I was like 23years old, I was a social worker and then kind of thrown into like the psych ward, which was just like a whole intensive experience where I learned so much about the Western kind of diagnostics psychiatric system. And I think that what I saw when I was kind of in that field is a very disempowered model where there's so much of a focus on and not trying to negate this in any way as being wrong, but just more of like interesting type of thing where people would go in and they would almost look toward the psychiatrist or the doctor or the therapist is like a savior in a lot of ways, like whatever they said is right. You know, and if a person or client didn't necessarily agree with that, they would almost like disempower themselves and say, OK. But the doctor says that I'm this or the doctor says I have this diagnosis, even though it doesn't really resonate with me, but I'm just going to listen to them anyway. And I saw a lot of things that were very harmful for a lot of people who were going in, especially around medication and being so tied to. And I know you and I will talk about this a little bit later, but being so tied to a diagnosis like, OK, I am this, this is who I am, like, I finally have an answer, but down the line, it started to almost cripple them. Like, I am this I can't do X, Y and Z, you know? And I sometimes see that with people with ROCD and they kind of get into the state where they're like, Well, I have ROCD. I can't do that almost as an excuse in a way to disempower. And they think that you and I really spoke about how we feel very confident in wanting to empower the people that we work with. And that's something that we feel really called to, which is, you know, wanting to empower one person and feeling into, you know, if the ROCD label feels good for you, that's great. If that relationship anxiety label feels good for you, that's great. If both feel great for you, that's great, you know? And I think that that was something that I worked with where I also kind of tiptoed with both, and I felt what felt good for me, and then I used that to empower me. So that was kind of my take with that, where I use both techniques to really empower me as an individual, and I like to do that with our clients as well.
Sarah: [00:11:06] Yeah, absolutely, and I think the cool thing about social media, but also the hard thing about it is that there are so many different people with many different messages about a similar subject. So I mean, look at the two of us here today. We both have similar missions, not the exact same but we're trying to help people with something that we both experienced and that ties to, you know, questioning your healthy, loving relationship. But there could be people listening to this that you hear one of us and say, Oh, I resonate with what she says more. Or maybe they see someone else online talking about it. And so whether or not it's a label that you resonate more with or a person who's sharing a message, I think you can just try to ask yourself, Does this make me feel good to hear this or does this sound like something that resonates with me? Because if it doesn't, then maybe I don't need to listen to it, and it doesn't mean just throw out any sort of advice from anyone, but just having an opinion on it first and maybe taking some time to sit with it, because I know that I've been very quick to prescribe myself about something based on some random person's Instagram post or something I heard on a podcast even and I would take it to heart. So just reminding people that they have that sense of autonomy to reflect on something and see it and try it on for size almost.
Kiyomi: [00:12:26] I think it's so hard with anxiety, right? Like with the OCD it's almost like, Oh my God, like that there's this like fixation and need to be like, I am this because it can be so hard for many individuals who have anxiety to just lie into the gray of trying something on or like being like, you know, Well, I'm just going to give it time and see what feels good to me. You know, there's always that sense of, Oh, I definitely have ROCD. I definitely have anxiety, almost like an excuse in a way to say that I'm in an OK relationship vs. I can play around with the whole dynamic of being in the relationship and play around with different types of help and support. And it doesn't have to define me and who I am and my relationship, and I think that itself can be a healing journey for a lot of people.
Sarah: [00:13:13] Yes, I couldn't agree more with that.
Kiyomi: [00:13:15] Yeah, it's very fascinating to see. I think something that also came up to me too was, you know, kind of seeing Alexis is the primary therapist for ROCD and working with anxiety and also having seen so many therapists. There were so many therapists that did not diagnose me with ROCD and there were some therapists that did. So, you know, I think that I say that specifically because at the end of the day, it's taking what works for you and trying that on. So I just kind of wanted to put that out there because I thought that that was, you know, important to say that it's kind of like playing with different types of hats, type of thing and then getting the support that you feel drawn to.
Sarah: [00:13:58] Yeah. And I think like we just said, with the gray areas that are so hard to sit in with the anxious mind or if you have OCD or OCD tendencies, it's kind of, you know, you can see someone talking about a topic. And if you hadn't been exposed to it before, let's say someone comes across one of our pages for the first time and they're like, Wow, they're explaining everything I felt. I'm so grateful for this label that finally explains what I've been experiencing. So they feel this sense of I'm not alone. There's other people like me, and I'm so glad that I don't have to feel this shame anymore. Or at least I remember feeling like that. And then, you know, that's a great piece of labeling yourself as something. And then as you said earlier, when it becomes an excuse or or when you become the victim to the circumstances that you're in and kind of use that label as something that means you can't grow or you can't do certain things, I think that's when it becomes something to look out for. So just showing people those two extremes.
Kiyomi: [00:15:02] Have you noticed that within yourself at all through your journey with relationship anxiety, where in the beginning it might have been like, Oh, I have this term for it, and I'm really excited. I know what it is. And have you noticed yourself almost like needing to work with letting that label go and how that's been?
Sarah: [00:15:19] Yeah, definitely, I remember just feeling such a weight and, you know, someone I mentioned, Sheryl Paul's book that I had come across, she's definitely inspired me a lot. And I remember when I read the book, I just ran to me like, Oh my gosh, like, someone mentioned this thing. I thought I was the only one who thought this, and I just remember feeling so much relief. It doesn't mean the anxiety was gone forever, but there was a moment of feeling that relief. And then now, you know, a few years later, I feel like there are times where I need to kind of distance myself, even though I am a coach for it, so I can't distance too much. But there are days when I'm like, I noticed that I'm really hyper fixating just on relationships because I'm a relationship coach and I help people with relationships. So I will hear a podcast or an Instagram post, and I'm like, How can I teach this to my clients? Or how can I integrate this into my own relationship, realizing that I don't need to be doing it a hundred percent of my life, you know, I can distance myself from just the sphere of relationships. I don't know if you feel that way, but sometimes it's hard to turn off my coaching brain. Even when I'm just trying to have a normal moment with myself, I'm trying to think and analyze a little bit too much.
Kiyomi: [00:16:35] And I think that the analyzing and some people get really caught into that right. Like where it's almost like they don't realize that analyzing and educating can definitely be that perfectionism. That's like underneath that. Like, if I learn all this type of stuff, then I can have my relationship be perfect. And I think that people swing into that area with things like couples work and relationship work. And then also they swing into if I can make my anxiety perfect or the OCD perfect, then everything will be perfect and it's really sticky underneath. Like, what's driving that? Because I feel as though you also have a passion for understanding relationship work and anxiety work and trying to find that balance. I'm sure of, OK, this is like actual education work to help my clients. And oh, I'm trying to, you know, make this in a way to make sure that my relationship is perfect.
Sarah: [00:17:23] Yeah, it's a delicate balance. Sometimes I have to, like, set my own boundaries that, oh, I'm just reading this book for fun. Like, I don't need to look for quotes for my Instagram page and like, I don't need to take notes on this and I think some days I need to remember. Oh, I'm probably adding an extra layer of analyzing or noticing this because I'm not only looking from my lens, I'm looking from, Oh, how can I help my clients understand this too? So even if me and Nate get into a disagreement, sometimes I have to remember. Like, not every disagreement needs to be an Instagram post afterwards, but some of them have a valuable lesson that I'm comfortable sharing some things, but I think there's a level of some boundaries you have to have when you're sharing things like this online, and I'm sure you feel the same.
Kiyomi: [00:18:05] So what would you say to some people who are like, who really love the educational analyzing, you know, intellectual aspect of the intellectualization can definitely be kind of that compulsive? What would you say? Because I'm sure you saw that within yourself. What would you say would be helpful for someone who was like, I love it. But then also like, I think I have been using it compulsively, like, what's been helpful for you?
Sarah: [00:18:27] Yeah, well, I think for me, noticing what my intention is behind it, like, am I to your point, trying to be perfect and fix my relationship from problems by reading this book and thinking that this is like the ticket to making things finally better? Or is it because I'm genuinely curious? Like, can I finish the book in three months or do I need to finish it in three days because I'm desperate for new information? So just remembering the intention behind it? And then if it's someone who feels the compulsion of it, maybe giving yourself some of those boundaries that I said, like maybe for a month, you're not buying a new book and you're just taking some time to implement things or just to practice mindfulness and allowing yourself to have some space without overstimulation and more information for a little bit.
Kiyomi: [00:19:15] So there is something that you said that was interesting where you said not using it compulsively. So when you're doing relationship anxiety work, are you talking to your clients and your students about a compulsive type of work? Because I know that's usually in the regard of like the ROCD, and I know that it's such a broad topic. But are you using that term as well with the ROCD, like compulsively like going into it? Like, would you say it's tied? Because I think that sometimes it can be confusing, right? Where the relationship anxiety work doesn't necessarily have the C sometimes like the compulsive part?
Sarah: [00:19:49] Totally. It's funny that you even said that because I honestly don't use the word very often. It might have been because we're just having this conversation that just came up. Yeah, but I would say, you know, I think the term obsessive gets used actually out of context, too. And the more I've been in this space, like for the limited time, I've tried to be really mindful and I follow certain accounts that are like, please don't use the word obsessive to just talk about, like, Oh, I'm obsessed with this new outfit, for example, because that can be something that can trigger for those who struggle with OCD, so I've been I've tried to actually be really mindful of the terminology I use, I really don't use the word compulsion or compulsive very often, but the sentiment of kind of that desperation and the need to do something as a way to almost avoid sitting in the discomfort, I would say, is more of what I kind of was saying with that intended word
Kiyomi: [00:20:48] That makes total sense. So what would you do in different situations where someone's coming to you and they're like, You know, I think I have ROCD, I think I have relationship anxiety. Would you go into what we talked a little bit about earlier in terms of feeling into what feels most empowering for an individual? I'm curious what you would say to individuals who come to you who are like, I'm not sure if I should take the relationship anxiety route or the ROCD route.
Sarah: [00:21:14] Totally. So it's similar to what I tell people who are coming to me who have experienced, I would say, big trauma because I'm trauma informed, but I am not a trauma therapist. And that's the same thing I say to someone who is curious about OCD. I say, I know what a ROCD is, but I'm not an ROCD or OCD therapist. And so if you're looking for any type of OCD specific treatment in the sense of exposure therapy or working with someone who is an expert in the OCD tendencies, that isn't going to be me. But I have that specific focus on relationship anxiety and what some dip into as ROCD. And so if you resonate with a lot of what I share, then that is going to be the experiences that I'm sharing back with you as I help coach you to become more competent and learning how to kind of handle the, you know, the intrusive thoughts and all of the feelings that arise in your body. So I'm always the first to give kind of that disclaimer to someone that sits down with me and I say, just like, I'm going to lovingly point you in a direction to get more support with trauma. If I see that you have certain traumas that I cannot hold space for, then I will do the same. If I notice that, for example, maybe you would be best to have an OCD therapist and a relationship anxiety coach, which some of my clients have had. And I know that is way not necessarily the norm, and I don't think everyone has the capacity to have both. But you know in a perfect world, all of this would just be something that everyone is able to access. And I think that it could be really unique for different people to have different options of support that they could get at the same time.
Kiyomi: [00:22:59] I love that. So what I'm hearing is that it can be a blend of both like someone going to be working with you, but they can also be working with an OCD specialist at the same time. And what's so interesting, as I've talked about this before, when I had ROCD, like I worked with, like so many people like I work with a therapist, I work with a mindfulness coach. I work like a neuroscientist, like I work with so many different people. And I think that we can kind of limit ourselves to, you know, like, Oh, I need to just be working with this one person when we can just be working with an array of many people. But I'm hearing that it can also be both for you. Like in terms of someone working with an ROCD specialist.
Sarah: [00:23:40] Yeah. And for me, I don't know why I find it hard to put words to my exact process. We kind of talked about this on our first call together, but I would say my intention to work with someone is to get underneath the things that are popping up in their day to day and get into some of the core of why this is such a big fear of theirs to begin with. So I really try to go deeper into like, well, what are the fears that are driving you to either be scared to leave or scared to stay, like there's something that is really scaring you? So I really try to focus on an understanding of what those things could be. So people feel like, Oh, I now understand why I'm reacting in this way, and then I try and help them with mostly body based, but also some cognitive tools as just a reminder of, hey, like when these anxious thoughts or feelings come up, you don't have to just let that kind of dictate the rest of your day or even the week. You know, we've all had a spiral that lasted like weeks on end. And if you can just learn how to kind of embrace it a little bit more, but also move through it at the same time, it's like a hard thing to explain. But knowing when to hold space for those feelings and thoughts and knowing when to just interrupt them and continue on because it doesn't always serve us to just go into the thought and stay in there forever.
Kiyomi: [00:25:01] What I'm hearing from you as you're talking, is like a very. Like a more grounded and not so scary approach, I think that a lot of people can see the term ROCD and OCD and feel really scared because there's just so much stigma behind it, and it can feel scary when someone's like, Oh my god, I just got diagnosed with ROCD. Like a lot of people like we talked about before, I have this image of, Oh, I'm like the person cleaning, you know, or like so much stigma and shame behind it. And what I really like about the term relationship anxiety in the work that you're doing is it doesn't have to be so scary, you know, like it doesn't have to feel so threatening. It doesn't have to be this. And this is like a really big part of the work that we do, too, is that it doesn't have to be you or define who you are. And I think that relationship anxiety in that term gives people more of a space of being human, and it gives more of a space of letting go of I am this and it's scary, and I have to follow this like medical diagnosis of X, Y and Z, where it's more like, Hey, I see you and you know, I've been there, and let's do this together in a way that doesn't have to feel so freakin scary. And that's definitely something that we strive to do with Awaken into love too, where it's definitely that combination of ROCD and anxiety together. But I think that that's such an important model. I don't know if you think that I'm assuming you think that way because it feels like you work that way, but it doesn't have to feel so scary.
Sarah: [00:26:36] Yeah. And I think we put a lot of labels on everything like not just the diagnosis. I'm putting that in air quotes, but even I was like, You know, what are your qualifications to help me, for example? Like, that's a question that I've been asked before, and I'll just be straight with people like there are therapists that are great, and then there are therapists that are not so great. And we've all had experiences or anyone in therapy I could think has had an experience where, like, maybe you didn't find the best therapist right away. I had therapists be like, Oh, that doesn't sound like you really care about this person, which is one of the worst things you could say to someone who's experienced ROCD or relationship anxiety. And so you can have an amazing therapist and a therapist who's never heard of this and then completely almost gaslight you in your experience. Or you can have an incredible coach or someone who can really resonate with you who's been in your shoes before. And then you can have a coach who's not so great like that. I'm sure there are many coaches out there who are not actually helping people, so I feel much more confident in the fact that I can relate on a personal level with my clients. And I know that some people don't feel that way. They'd rather have someone who has the credentials. I guess you could say other therapists, and I'm not knocking therapists at all. I love therapists. I've been in therapy before many times and I highly recommend people go to therapy. But those labels can also be a little bit sticky, too, because if you're just going to therapy because of the label of a therapist, then are you actually checking to see if that's the best person to support you in your journey?
Kiyomi: [00:28:14] There's so much I can say to this. I also think like having been in the mental health field for such a long time and I started therapy. My mom put me in therapy when I was like 10 because she was like, Your father's an alcoholic and you need to go to therapy. So I started so young and like I've seen, like hundreds of therapists, and I can literally attest to the fact that there are horrible therapists out there and it is damaging and it is not OK. Like, I'm sure you've heard some stories of clients coming to you and just having a horrible experience and you being like, What is going on? Like, how can a therapist even say that? And they think that this comes back to what we were talking about earlier, that we are all empowered sovereign individuals and we get to choose, you know, what works for us and play around with it. And just because a therapist has said something to you that could have been really damaging, like I've heard stuff that is just unethical, but not even a coach would ever say, you know, it really comes down to just knowing that every individual has their choice in their sovereignty. And if something is not empowering for you, you don't have to choose that route. And I think the whole qualification thing like you're saying, I I think as a society, we're starting to move a little bit more away from it. Do you think people are less and less going to school and people are starting to just think, Wow, there are coaches out there who can help me more than therapists? You know, I think that it's the same in the medical field and seeing that a lot too, with people feeling like their naturopath can help them, whether they're a doctor and stuff like that. But there is that reality, and I think it really comes down to luckily knowing that we are, we can be empowered and choose what works for us.
Sarah: [00:30:01] Totally and you know, not to even. This isn't even to toot my own horn, but I had many clients say that my help to them was way beyond a therapist who didn't know their experience, so just thinking about talking to someone that's your friend, like if they can sit there and validate you and have compassion and empathy for you and say, Oh my God, I've been there, I know how hard that is. Instead of saying like, that doesn't seem familiar to me, like that doesn't sound like you're in a happy relationship. The difference between those two things can be so huge. And so just really making sure that whatever coach or therapist or anything that you're doing to get support it, just making sure that this person is validating you first and foremost, because even if your feelings are maybe too much, so to speak, or if you're like, Oh, I have too many feelings about this, I shouldn't be feeling this way. Even if you think that and someone should still validate you and say, nope, your feelings are valid, you're reacting this way because of something. And even if we choose to grow beyond that type of reaction, the way you're reacting is still valid because the worst thing someone can say to you is like, that doesn't seem like you should be reacting that way or you shouldn't be doing that.
Kiyomi: [00:31:13] I think another damaging thing within that that some people don't realize is when someone like a therapist or even like a coach says that they are right versus the person is right when they're like, No, this is actually the right way and you're doing the wrong way in a way that is disempowering. Again, like, I'm talking more about the person and, you know, the therapist being, like, feeling like they're so right about everything. There's maybe like we could do a whole podcast on things that you know or said that are so hurtful for people who have relationship anxiety and ROCD that really breaks my heart. It seems like you and I have both gone through it too. You've had experiences as well that have been really hurtful. So for everyone out there, just as a reminder, you know, know that you have that empowerment and sovereignty to choose what works for you and you know what feels good for you. And I think that the more we're getting into this work with the ROCD and the relationship anxiety, the more I feel like things are just going to, you know, blend in a way that's important. And I think that there are things within the relationship that are on the anxiety spectrum that are important for ROCD work and vice versa. And I just have a feeling that what's important is us just all coming together to support the individual and what they need to during that time and what works for them and just empowering them in that way. And that's what I'm hoping for in terms of the whole labeling with ROCD and anxiety work.
Sarah: [00:32:36] Yes, and that's why I'm so happy that we get to have these types of conversations, and I know many of us method with other coaches in our space, and we're all really just here to help others with their own anxiety or fears in the relationship. So just I guess to your point, yeah, that collective greater good of supporting is more important than who you decide to work with or what label you give it. It's really just about you feeling confident to take steps that help support yourself.
Kiyomi: [00:33:07] I love that. Well, thank you so much, Sarah. Thank you so much for being here. This is good.
Sarah: [00:33:14] It was so good. Thank you Kiyomi.
Kiyomi: [00:33:18] You're so welcome! If anyone wants to find you or they want to start to work with you. Where's the best way? Where's the best place they can go?
Sarah: [00:33:26] Yeah. So I'm over on Instagram and Tiktok at the same handle @youloveandyoulearn. And then my blog is www.youloveandyoulearn.com. So on my website, I have over 75 blog posts. I kind of share more about my story and relationship anxiety, and then that has more information about how to work with me, as well as someone who would like to learn more.
Kiyomi: [00:33:47] Beautiful, so are you working with people one on one right now? Is that kind of the main focus that you're doing, you're working with people? Awesome.
Sarah: [00:33:53] Yeah. So one on one. And then I did come up with a digital course that kind of takes the one on one concepts and puts it into a self study thing that you can learn kind of on your own terms. So I know that for me, private coaching is like a three month thing. I know that can be like a big investment as far as time and energy for somebody. So if you're looking for something a little bit more, just kind of on the fly, then the course is for you.
Kiyomi: [00:34:19] Awesome, awesome. Well, thank you so much, Sarah. It was so wonderful to have you and thank you for the work that you do. It's so, so, so important. And I'm just so happy that we're continually spreading this information for people who need it. So thank you. It's such a blessing.
Sarah: [00:34:35] Thank you. And you too.