How to make ROCD/ Anxiety work for you (ft. Nicholas)
Kiyomi: Hi, everyone, welcome to the Awakened into Love podcast. This is your host, Kiyomi Lafleur, and we're on episode number 21 in today's Podcast episode. I interviewed the incredible Nicholas, who was the founder of the Wave and the Ocean on Instagram. But before you dove in and listen, I do want to apologize and say that after I interviewed Nicholas, I realized that my mic was not plugged into the computer. So you might want to have to turn up the volume on this episode so you can hear Nicolas's incredible wisdom and everything he has to say, which I felt was so, so, so powerful. I'm really excited about this episode. And I have a feeling that a lot of males who identify as males will find a lot of relief and support in it. We really talked about gender and how a lot of males feel very stigmatized in the mental health community. But specifically in our study, we talked about marriage and what that looks like for him, attraction and the resistance and wanting to be in a committed relationship, what ROCD has taught him and how it has freed him and helped him in a lot of ways, the topic of security, safety and boredom in a relationship and being interested and addicted to the chaos, how the internal affects how you feel about your partner and how you project your insecurities to your partner and just so many other things that I know are going to be so supportive and helpful for you. We really spoke about it in a very powerful way to help you awaken within yourself, your life and within your relationship.
Nicholas: Hi Kiyomi, how's it going?
Kiyomi: Good. I'm so excited that you're here today and we've been talking about doing this podcast for a while. And I'm just so thrilled that you are coming on to today's podcast to talk about really, really important things. I know you and I were talking, I think, a couple of weeks ago when we drafted a document together and we kind of came up with so many different topics together. And I'm just so thrilled to have you. I think that you can offer so much wisdom to the Awaken into Love community. And I'm also really, really thrilled because you are the first person that I'm interviewing that is male, which is crazy to me. I don't know how that feels to you. How does that feel to you? The first person that I know that I'm interviewing is male.
Nicholas: It feels awesome. It feels so..it was already exciting to be a part of this because I'm like a huge fan of you and everything you do. And not to mention how much you've helped me and my own personal journey with OCD and to see how far I've come with that and where I am today, we'll get into that. But when you told me that, I guess now I'm the second if we count your husband. But when you told me a few weeks ago, before you interviewed Joel that I would be the first male guest, that was like, cool, what an honor.
Kiyomi: All right. And I think that there's kind of like some people can kind of feel mixed feelings with that. But for me, it's like there's sometimes this feeling of sadness in my heart because, one, I know that there's so many males out there who really suffering in silence and who feel as though in some way and I've actually had people DM me about this and email me about this and be like I feel like I only see females on the podcast, people who identify as females. Do you think that ROCD is just specifically for females? And so whenever I get those messages, there's a part of me that feels a sense of sadness, because what we've been recognizing with Awaken into Love is that there are actually a lot of males out there who are really just suffering quietly. And I think that it has a lot to do with, you know, society and it's kind of the stigma on men and mental health. But then also this excitement that I'm like, oh, Nicholas is coming on to the podcast and will be able to really help people who really identify as men out there and, you know, support them in that way. So thank you so much again.
Nicholas: Absolutely, yeah, I'm happy to be here.
Kiyomi: I'm so happy. So I would love to hear from you, Nicholas, a little bit about your background in terms of ROCD, if you'd like to share that with us, because I think it's quite unique and you have a lot to offer in terms of wisdom. But would you be able to start off with, you know, your journey with ROCD, maybe how it started and different types of difficulties that kind of came up for you as you've been or had experienced ROCD?
Nicholas: Yeah, absolutely. Gosh, there's so much to unpack there. And I'll do my best to get into a nice little picture there. But, you know, labeling it, I suppose. And I'm one of those people that, like, in some ways tries to avoid labels, are getting too attached to labels, but in the same sense, labeling it as ROCD kind of happened. I think the first exposure to that, this idea of relationship anxiety or ROCD came through your videos. I, like you, popped up on YouTube and I have no idea how you popped up. It was one of those things that, like the algorithm, was working that day. Clearly, it was working as a favor. Yeah, yeah, and it was right, and I've been in this relationship now for just over three years. My three year anniversary was five days ago. So I've been in the most beautiful, loving, supportive, stable relationship of my life. And also it's been the most challenging for me in terms of triggering anxiety and all sorts of ways, showing me my shadow and having that come to the surface and all sorts of ways. So, yeah, when your videos popped up, I was in the midst of dealing with these on again, off and on again, feelings of being both madly in love with this beautiful person that I'm with and also constantly questioning, am I in the right relationship? Is she right for me? Is the relationship right for me? I have these sorts of fantasies, like sometimes I fantasize about being alone. Sometimes I fantasize about being with someone who is “more right for me”, whatever the heck that means. And sometimes I have fantasies about running off to live in an ashram and like staying away from relationships in general and like just focusing on my spiritual practice.
Kiyomi: Yeah. Not having to work with the shadow, the difficulties of life.
Nicholas: Yeah. Like, it's so easy to sit in a cave all day and meditate and eat bananas. I have a theory, right, of being in the jungle and just subsisting on bananas and meditation. But so yeah. Like when I found your videos it was like, wow, this is describing exactly what I'm feeling and this feeling of not wanting to leave my relationship because it's so beautiful, but at the same time constantly questioning it and sometimes feeling like I need to get out. The only way for me to feel peace to escape this anxiety that I'm feeling is to leave the relationship. And just realizing I mean, again, that was back then I didn't have the awareness that I have right now that I've learned from working with you and from taking a course or two and things like that, and more than anything, doing deep personal work. But back then, it was this idea that I didn't realize then that I was heaving all of my agitation onto my relationship, you know, that really my relationship was just my way of projecting. Right.
Kiyomi: Right.
Nicholas: And so yeah, your videos came to me. And as I started, eventually I became a course member and I took your course. Eventually, you and I did some one on one work together and I did one on one work with Alexis. But before all of that, it was this slow process of slowly starting to realize this isn't a new thing for me. This isn't it. This isn't coming from just this partner with this partner, I should say. It happened with the last one and it happened with the one before that and it happened with every sort of thing. That wasn't a relationship in between all of the things that could have been relationships, but ended up being me just meeting a girl, having a crush, falling in love, maybe having some sort of relationship of some kind for a while, whether it be like a friend with benefits or whatever. There were always times where I could have gotten into a relationship and stayed away because I felt anxiety. So if I go back, I realize that it all kind of now with this sort of like 20/20 vision, I can look back and say, okay, this all started around 2014 or so. I never had it before then. I was always really romantic and really gung ho. And in a long term relationship from 2010 to 2014, I was always looking forward to marriage and always kind of talking about marriage. And I even realize now wanting marriage to tie the knot to finalize this relationship that wasn't going so well in a lot of ways. And I kind of realize now, looking back, I almost had anxiety about getting married because I thought it would be like, that'll save it, then we'll be good. There's no escape, right?
Kiyomi: Exactly. And what's really interesting about that is that you were wanting it right. You were kind of waiting to get married and wanting it. And I find it fascinating because you just got married, right? You just got married. Was it a couple of days ago? Was it a couple of weeks ago?
Nicholas: I got married five days ago
Kiyomi: by having the podcast interview. You were like, I never thought I would get engaged. So there was a part of you that really wanted it when you were younger. That's what I'm hearing. And then now there's a part of you that now you were in this phase where you were actually married and it just kind of that interesting kind of comparison where you went from this place that I really want to get married. And then it seemed like throughout your, maybe adolescent life, you kind of pushed away relationships or it was also this like push and pull. What I'm hearing, right, like you were really romantic and wanting to be in a relationship, but there's a part of you that was like, oh, no, no, no, no. This is probably too scary. There's something coming up here. And now you've been able to be in this state, this incredible transition where, you know, you're in this state of marriage, which is I mean, wow.
Nicholas: Yeah. And like five days. And so I didn't I didn't want to start with that. I knew it would come up, but I didn't want to start with. I wanted to leave that to be a secret. You may bring it up because. Yeah, you know, I've come so far in that area and to be married now is like, amazing. Like, I never I shouldn't say never, because that's kind of an interesting thing. Like when I came to you, it was like, I can't think about being engaged, I can't think about being married, all that kind of stuff. There was so much fear around it. But looking back, like I said, no, it wasn't that way for some even my high school crushes or my high school like relationships. Even back then, I was like, oh, my gosh, I think, you know, this might be the one we might get married to. You know, I've always been, like, overly romantic in that sense. But, yeah, starting around a difficult breakup in 2014, ever since then, up until recently, I was so averse to the idea of marriage. And there were all these questions like, you know, should I just be single or should I just be a playboy, know all those kinds of things? And yet here we are. You know, I've been in a relationship for just over three years and I've been married for five days. And, you know, part of me wants to say, like, I can't believe it. I can't believe it. And there's truth to that. But I also can believe it. It's like I wake up and I'm like, holy crap, like I'm married. And it's like it feels good and normal and happy and, you know.
Kiyomi: Right. And I think that that's really one of the most conflicting parts and most confusing parts for people who have ROCD is that there's such a conflict. It's like a constant in a war that's going on with people who have ROCD, with people who have relationship anxiety, where there's that one part of us that's like, I love this person so much. I really care for this person. There's something obviously here that's making me and keeping me in this relationship. Right. But then there's this other piece that comes and that brings in all of these thoughts, which I know you talked about. And for you, from what I'm hearing, a big part of it was like maybe I should be single, maybe I'm not meant to be in a relationship. Maybe I should kind of be just by myself, or maybe I should just not be in a monogamous relationship. That's kind of what I heard just with the type of resistances that came up. I'm curious, too, if you feel in any way that being a male in this society has influenced any of those specific types of obsessions. I'm curious if you feel as though being a male in society has a kind of I don't know, like creating more of an emphasis on having those specific ones. Because what's really interesting is that we constantly see with this work with Awaken into Love, is that when we're working with, like someone who is identifying as a female and someone who is identifying as a male, there's a lot of similarities in the category of someone who's a male versus someone who's a female. And I'm just so curious if you feel as though society in any way has kind of influenced those specific types of obsessions that you have or you've been able to kind of pick up on that in your journey.
Nicholas: Yes, yes, yes. Yes. Like in so many different ways. So you mentioned at the beginning of our little chat here that. You know, a lot of the people in the OCD community seem to be female or female identifying in some way, and I noticed that right away. I noticed immediately when I came to your work, I think I saw like one testimonial from a guy on your course page and I was like, okay, thank you. At least someone like a traditionally male name, like, I can't say, but I just remember at that time it was like, okay, that maybe there is a place for me here, you know? And it's also so funny for you to say that, like, yeah, we see that like in this community and this other course that I took on ROCD, it does seem to be like largely female identifying people in these courses, which was so interesting to me, because in my everyday life and with people I speak to, it's all males that have this problem just, you know, so I thought that was so interesting. You said like you started to wonder if ROCD was, like, more of a female oriented problem. And I was like, how about that? Because I was always thinking, it's just it's all males. Women are always, like, in love and are committed. And so that kind of ties into what you're asking is like this is fear of commitment. You know, for one thing, as far as I can tell, that's really drummed up in society is like a very male thing. Right. Men are men who won't commit and men are just dogs. And men like to play the field and all these kinds of things. Right. And so I can, of course, recognize some of those aspects in me. Right. Of having some fear, of commitment, of, you know, wanting to play the field in some way. You know, I won't pretend that those aren't parts of me as well, because I'm a complex person. But, yeah, I definitely see this. Like, there's stigmas against men basically speaking out about the way that they feel or sharing their emotions related to these things, like being able to say honestly, like I'm struggling in any way is like a very like that's difficult for men, I think, in all sorts of ways and reinforced in society, like even what we're told is that like, yeah, they say women want an emotional guy and a vulnerable guy. But like, let's be honest, what they really want is like the strong silent type. You know, I think that's what a lot of men feel, right?
Kiyomi: Interesting, because my husband actually said that last night to me. So I think that is really interesting. I think that there's a part of men who, of course, have that kind of emotional aspect. I mean, we all do. But society kind of brings up this idea. Right. And a lot of ways about how men should be or how they should act. So there's kind of like push and pull. And what I'm hearing, too, is that society tends to kind of reinforce this idea that young men have commitment issues or that they don't really like to commit. They're kind of like the Playboys. And I think that in some way, that also kind of is like a bypass or an excuse when people have ROCD that they're kind of like, well, I just have commitment issues. Maybe I'm just supposed to be by myself for the rest of my life because society enforces that. And I think people don't necessarily get the support that they need to be like, wait, no, this is actually not necessarily something because I'm born this way or are meant to be this way. But this is trauma coming up for me or this is my anxiety.
Nicholas: Yeah learned behavior and coping mechanisms. And like for some reason, I want to mention right now that, like, what was so powerful for me was to realize that, like, I would not have found you, your message would have just gone right over my head and wouldn't have resonated if I wanted to leave my partner. You know, and I know you talk about that like, ah, you talk about that a lot in your videos and in your course and things. But in the beginning, that was just sort of an idea for me. It was like, oh, yeah, well, you know, it's easy for her to say whatever she did. But now, looking back, it's so clear to me that if I wanted to leave my partner, I would have just left my partner. I had a thousand reasons to and none of them were good reasons. None of them were red flags. None of them were because she was not a wonderful person. I had a thousand like anxiety based fears and things like that, reasons in my mind that were coming up from trauma, that were coming up from fear of what I could have left and the fact that I came there and was like even remotely interested in what you guys were doing, you guys being you and Alexis, just to be clear, like now looking back. And that's such proof that, like, I always kind of belonged in my relationship and wanted to belong and wanted to stay there. I just needed to work through and continue to, of course, still going to come up for me. But to continue to work through all of these like layers of shadow and trauma that were hiding underneath.
Kiyomi: It's so interesting how when we do this awakening, where can we go in this healing journey that we kind of come to different places of? The path where we look back and we're like, well, that makes sense, well, like exactly what you're saying. Well, I'm sure maybe a couple of years ago you wouldn't have had that insight or that wisdom. But I think that through your journey and I know that we're going to talk a big amount in this podcast, which I think is going to be so empowering, is that you are now starting to recognize and see the blockages or the difficulty that came up not as a as a way for it to be punishing you or in a way for it to say, you know, you're a bad person or there's something wrong with you or kind of that kind of like push down effect, more so of the things that it really gave you opportunities for. And I'm assuming that you're kind of like at this period now we're like, wow, I see. I kind of see I have different glasses now where it's not in the lens of the pain and the trauma. Sometimes, of course, it comes up right. We're human, but more so now. I'm hearing from you this place where you have this deeper seed of wisdom where you're able to see how the difficulties were really helping you.
Nicholas: Yeah. And at the time and I suppose a little bit when it still comes up, but more when this was more prevalent for me, it was all I could see was pain. I could see that like this is just causing me. This relationship is the reason that I feel pain and suffering and anxiety instead of this vision of peace that I have this vision of perfect peace where I'd be good, I would just be good if I was on my own or it'd be good if the right person was there. I wouldn't have that, you know, and yeah, it's like the wisdom is there now, too. But there's this clarity of all I could see at the time was shame and frustration and pain and like how even things like what's wrong with me? Why can't I just feel good here? Like, can I just get over this? Am I always going to be this way? Like, all I could see was that at that time. And so, yeah, it's amazing to see now and to feel now that like whether it's relationship anxiety or like any sort of anxiety, it really is like it is the door that you should walk through in order to have the awakening that you're seeking. I mean, and rather than wanting to stay away from that door, like, I'm realizing more and more that like this. I wouldn't have the level of wisdom, but also the level of beauty in my life if I didn't walk through this door, if I didn't make the decision to, like, not run away from it. And I'm getting really emotional saying that right now, because doing this work and being with this person has brought up so much that I wanted to not look at and looking at it and facing it and deciding to work with it and go through it, rather than trying to go around it in some sense or even go away from it has just been so freakin' beautiful. And, you know, so, yeah.
Kiyomi: So beautiful. And I want to go back to something that you just said, which was it brought up so much of yourself that you didn't want to look at. Would you be willing to share with them some of the things that you feel? Because I know that sometimes for some people that can be triggering hearing, oh, my God, maybe I don't want to look at a part of me that is meant to be about myself or, you know, all those types of things. But would you be willing to share some of the things that you realized within the journey of the things that you didn't really want to look at that really offered you so much healing and actually deeper connection with yourself and your partner.
Nicholas: Yeah, so there's a lot one that I want to start with, just because that's what comes to my mind right away is this I can't remember where I heard the concept of might have been might have been through you guys that I want to say it was from Sheryl Paul. But this concept of Oatmeal love, I don't know if you've heard of that, but love this idea that a lot of us are seeking this like and you talk about like the Hollywood type of love and whatever and how it but this vision in us that like of a of a love that is like always like passionate and frenetic and chaotic and like, you know, they spend the whole whole movie, like in this sense of chaos. And there's this like piece at the end that happens when they finally get together. And like, we attached more to the chaos part than anything else. Right. And so, you know, you talk about that, too. And when I first heard this idea of Oatmeal love, I kind of laughed at it because I could see a lot of truth behind it. And it's this idea that, like, I started to realize that stability and safety and security and a partner who truly wanted to be with me and support me and stay with me no matter what and like see my shadow and still love me. I started to associate that with boredom. Yeah, you know, and I mentioned that I had a relationship that ended in 2014, which was like the most passionate relationship I've ever had. But it was also like nasty in a lot of ways. Like, I wouldn't say we were nasty to each other, but like it wasn't healthy and all sorts of ways. But that was like what was my longest relationship at the time. It's actually still like it lasted just a little bit longer even than the one that I'm in right now where I'm married. So for a while that was kind of like my vision of like, oh, that was that was the most successful one because it had lasted so long
Kiyomi: Put things right in the passion and excitement and kind of the chaos that we get addicted to those hormones and adrenaline that we get addicted to that are then reinforced by society, that that's the "normal love" and what it should look like. And then when we get we get in that conflicted period of like, wait, this is painful, but maybe this is what love is supposed to be. This at least.
Nicholas: And and that passionate thing, too, is like, you know, we live in I'm so, so tired of it now, but especially in certain circles and like the in in what they call like the spiritual circles, which like I'm I'm very enmeshed in in a lot of ways. And to like self development these days, like a lot of people, they share these messages of like it's what do they say? It's either a yes or no. If you've heard that before, there's that one. There's also this idea of like, you know, you should always follow your passion and. You know, and if you're not always passionate about your partner, then it's the wrong partner. You should be passionate about your career all the time. You should be passionate about what you're having for breakfast. I mean, I don't know what it is. These people are passionate all the time.
Kiyomi: Who are these people? Where are they?
Nicholas: Look up the meaning of the word. Yeah, it sounds horrible looking at it now. It sounds horrible. And if you look up the meaning of the word passion, like the actual Greek word, passion, like it doesn't describe, like really being in love with the thing that you're doing or the person that you are with or anything it actually describes, like it's the unhealthy expression of like love in a way. It's like the infatuation and like the crazy obsessiveness of when we can, like, really get overly obsessed with something or someone. It's like what passion used to be a positive, necessarily a positive word. So, yeah, this whole it's either a fuck, yes or no ties into the whole black and white thinking. But going back to that concept of oatmeal love, like I started to associate, I suppose, my relationship because it was safe with boredom. I started to associate relationships in general with boredom. And I suppose I started to associate safety with boredom, which is like such a ridiculous concept, as if we know deep down all we really want our whole life is to feel secure and to feel loved and to feel seen. And yet somewhere along the way, again, I can look back with more clarity. But somewhere along the way, I learned to crave all of those hormones. Right. I crave the addiction and the chaos and the up and downness of previous relationships so much that like, you know, I'm sitting here and I'm loved and I'm made to feel safe. And I'm like, something's wrong. You know, I've got to get out.
Kiyomi: Along with this sense of safety. Something's wrong. Yeah, curity. Because, one, it doesn't feel so up and down. And this is also specifically common for people who have grown up in traumatic environments or they have just kind of witnessed like maybe they've been living in this family who's always been up and down, or there's some sort of excitement constantly going on where they kind of become addicted or that becomes their safety. And then when they start to have relationships that are passionate and exciting, then they can focus their attention on that excitement instead of focusing on maybe like the doneness or sometimes the emptiness they feel inside. Right. So a lot of times when that chaos starts to fade or that excitement starts to fade, we're left with the neutrality of relationships. But in a lot of cases, if we've been addicted to the chaos and we've used that as an escape, then we're also kind of left with the parts of ourselves that feel uncomfortable.
Nicholas: We're left with ourselves.
Kiyomi: Yeah, exactly. And so in a lot of cases with that, when we're left with ourselves, then that kind of little wound starts to kind of pop up like, oh, like I can't go to my partner to fix everything. Oh, I am supposed to do that for myself. And then we start to take full accountability and ownership, which can be really, really scary because sometimes perfectionism can be mixed in with that of how do I take accountability for myself, how do I start to lean in and start to trust myself instead of constantly projecting onto my partner to either give me that sense of excitement or for me to blame all of my stuff on to them?
Nicholas: Yeah, that's horrible. I just think that it's like such an unfair thing to do to a partner, especially a partner that's like there for us and supportive of us. But, yeah, it's like you said, you're left with yourself at the end of the day. And I've known for a long time that concept internally. I've really known and lived that concept that, like anything, can be a comfort zone like comfort. When we talk about a comfort zone like that doesn't mean it's comfortable, right. Like we can, you know, anxiety, depression, like feelings of craving chaos and like needing all the hormones like that can be your comfort zone. It doesn't mean that it's comfortable. You know, it could be just like you can become used to anything in a way, especially when you've become used to certain things as a response to pain. You know, and again, I can look back and see that, like I learned to deal with pain of previous loss and previous hurt, previously not being seen, previously not being held and made to feel safe in relationships. I learned to feel, you know, I learned to deal with that pain by, you know, seeking discomfort in a way seeking chaos and discomfort and making that my norm.
Kiyomi: Right. So those are the big, really big pieces that you were speaking about earlier. When you're talking about those parts of yourself that you don't want to look at.
Nicholas: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Kiyomi: So how do you feel in some ways about those specific ones that you just mentioned, maybe we can go one by one with them? How do you feel looking back now that it's offered you something completely different, like even just thinking back to Nicholas with, like, really debilitating ROCD like, you know, in those coping mechanisms, how do you feel like you are different now and how do you feel, looking back, that it's offered you something greater for yourself and your relationship? It's a big question.
Nicholas: It seems that their questions are always so good, so which is why I love talking to you. Yeah, well, I guess I remember when I got engaged, so I got engaged about six months ago. And I remember when I got engaged, I reached out to you and I was like, we did it, you know, because obviously you were such you were such a help in my journey. Right. And it's our journey now in a way. So I remember telling you, like, yeah, we did it, you know, have engaged, like, I can't believe it. I'm so happy. Thank you. Thank you for all your support. And I think I reached out like a week later and I was like, what the hell have I done? Like, I begged you, like, I know you're not doing hour sessions anymore, but could I get it out to you? I've like I've made a horrible mistake. I gotta get out. And so I guess that's like in a nutshell, I don't think I've had one really serious, like, freak out since that I think that was it. And other than that, I had days or moments when it pops up. It might even pop up for two or three days, you know, like I might feel two or three days. But it's like what you said about having different glasses now. Like, it's so I truly believe that, like the journey, if we can call it that, or the spiritual journey, if we can call it that, is like not about getting over these like what we call lower primitive base emotions, all these ways that we shame the human experience. Yeah. Just the word like this whole idea that there's lower and higher left and right, all this binary nonsense that like I see it more clearly every day, I feel this immense liberation in this idea that, like, you know, again, even this idea of like, oh, there's this thing called enlightenment and it's up above and you go there and everything's like better. They're somehow like, I'm learning that, like, if enlightenment does exist and I know it does, it's the full embracing of everything. Right. True liberation is being able to see it all, take it all into your field, but like let it move through you rather than getting stuck in there and bouncing around and causing the things that we might label as anxiety or depression or even illness in the body. Right. So for me, like I'm realizing more and more that, you know, you could say that, like, once you put on these new glasses at the same time, everything changes and also nothing changes. Right. It's like the same events might be happening on the outside and the external. But the way you relate to them changes entirely. And I might still have either a day or even a two or three day period where I'm noticing now, like there's a little bit of this, like, relationship doubt coming up. There's a little bit of this anxiety coming up, you know, this feeling of, you know, yeah, maybe there's someone more right for me or maybe I should be single. You know, these things still pop up a little bit from time to time. I will say that they pop up less. But I'm also not going to lie and say that they pop up like way less. And I'm like, it's all these things. Like, they're pointing me inward more and more. Now I notice it and it's much the way I teach meditation. So the same way that I would say that, like, please get this idea out of your mind that you're supposed to turn off your thoughts during meditation or something like that. Right. It's this idea of like I see the thoughts come up, I see the distraction happening, and I just notice it. And rather than jumping on that rocking ship and letting it blast me off into anxiety hyperspace, you know, I just like, notice it. I'm like, oh, there's the distraction. And I take a breath and I come back to my meditation. Right. And it's the same with, like, my feelings of like, oh my God, am I in the wrong relationship? Oh, my God, am I settling. Oh, my God. Should I be here? All these things that pop up all of a sudden it's like, ah, this is pointing me backwards, it's pointing me inwards into myself and kind of asking me to consider like did I eat well today, that I sleep well. Last night I did my morning meditation today, you know, all these kinds of things like what is this really trying to show me about myself? And there's also that whole like, you know, how you see like the true spiritual teachers seem to be, like, laughing all the time. Like, why are these guys always laughing? What are they laughing about? Like, that's what I think they're laughing about now that I realize that they're laughing because they're able to see all of the human experience and have all the human experience. And when the anger comes up in them, they laugh at it kind of like, oh, there you are again, anger. You son of a gun, I know you. I see you right, and same with happiness, too. It's like, oh, there you are, happiness, you know, and rather than always like becoming so identified with our experience, you're so identified with whatever emotion we're feeling which comes and goes. Right. The thoughts come and go, the emotions come and go. Like the only thing that's true is transience, that everything comes and goes right. And so we learn to attach to certain things so much we might even attach to these ROCD labels so much. But once we put on these different glasses, these feelings pop up, these emotions pop up. And, you know, as they say in your community, here's to being human, right? You just like noticing and you're like, oh, here it is. You know, and that's not to say that it doesn't get challenging at times. But when you've got those different glasses on or even when you're able to remember that you have those glasses as a tool and you can put them on, that's what I say. Everything changes, right? Like nothing changes. But at the same time, everything changes.
Kiyomi: So good. I could go into so many different directions with this. So much wisdom. I just always want to take a pause and like, have the audience just like take that in, because it's just incredible wisdom and it's true. And it's really the basis of awakening, Awaken into Love. Right. We're we're we're not in this like an unconscious state or we kind of start there, we start in the unconsciousness and then we start to kind of open our eyes and wake up and start to come into the state of awakening. And I love what Alexis says. Alexis always talks about how it's not about we're having control of our emotions. It's that we're able to take charge. We're able to be in the seat of groundedness and able to observe what is going on in order to make different decisions or in order to come more into our humanness. And there was some love that you said, which was along the lines of how the suffering or how obsessive thinking or anxiety is almost like this. This bell in my mind of how I say this, like mindfulness Bell saying, did I eat today? Did I sleep today? Am I taking care of myself? And what that translates to, really, when you said that is, wow, our body is actually just nudging us to just come into more states of love for ourselves and our partnership and kind of like those mindfulness bell those triggers are kind of obsessive. Thinking is painful because that's kind of the only way for it to get our attention. It's not going to be happy because if it's happy and it's full of excitement, we're not going to really pay attention to it as much. Right. It's almost like those little painful mindfulness bells that really come up to say, hey, like, have you taken care of me today because I care for you and I really care about you. And I know that I want to care for my partner and my relationship, too, because when we can take care of ourselves, when we can do that work, when we do that awakening in that healing journey, then our relationship starts to blossom. And I'm sure you've probably seen that within your relationship. The more you kind of go into that journey within yourself, the more your relationship or maybe even your partner starts to shift. Have you noticed that within your relationship or your partnership in any way?
Nicholas: Yeah, and it's one of the things that we talked about. There's so much good stuff for you. It's one of the things that you and I spoke about previously. It relates to one of the like stigmas or whatever, like one of the possibly like the things that a lot of males might experience in relationship is this idea of like I wouldn't say it's an idea. It's like attraction. Is, you know, again, I should be attracted to my partner all the time. And if I'm not, there's something wrong with my partner or the relationship or maybe even me. You might take in like a shame, shame based approach to it and be like there's something wrong with me. But again, the only way to fix it is to get out and find a different relationship. And that attraction thing is so interesting how the way that we are feeling about ourselves, even if we're not aware of it, we might find ways to say I feel great about myself, that I'm hot shit and I'm amazing and my partner is just not attractive or whatever. And it's funny how, like, attraction does come and go. There's no question that it comes and goes for the same person. And certainly if you've been with someone for a while, it's like we could say that some of that novelty wears off. But there's there's plenty of days where I'm like my partner is the most attractive person in the world to me. So I'll admit that still after years and there's also those days where, like, it's not there as much. And I do notice that those are the days more and more where, like, I'm not feeling good in myself. I might be hiding behind layers of, like, self aggrandizement and. Seeing myself like, no, I'm fine, it's not me, it's her, but again, it's those days where, like, I'm ignoring those little bells that you were talking about, about taking care of myself. So I think that's a really important thing to to mention there to be aware of is that like know much in the way that a baby cries when it needs attention. You know, like I was just thinking and laughing when I was a kid and I used to take care of the Tamagotchi right at the time. He yells at you, like, feed me for a while. And so I noticed that with my attraction levels, for example, like in one sense I'm learning to embrace that attraction, moving up and down as a very normal thing. And man, I think because of all sorts of reasons and societal standards and what attach a lot of value on attraction in a relationship, but learning to embrace the fact that it goes up and down, number one. And number two, learning to recognize that it seems to go up and down, largely based on what's going on in my internal reality. And if we're really getting deep here and we're talking about awakening to love and why, I was always like I resonated with that, with the name as someone who's, like, interested in the spiritual journey and an awakening into consciousness. Right. Not like higher levels of consciousness, whatever that means, but to becoming a more conscious, aware person. Like, again, there's this awareness as well that. The. The up and down this and the embracing of it again is the path for me to become more liberated, to become more free, to recognize that like I can get so into, you know, all the little nitty gritty details of what's going on at any given moment. Or I can come into this like a more holistic view of the world and realizing that everything is pointing to this like you. And I guess what I'm dancing around here, the number three here realization for me is that, like, I'm realizing more and more that everything is a reflection of my internal reality, whether I'm aware of what my internal reality is or not. It's a reflection of both the conscious and subconscious parts of my reality. Attraction is one of those things, and so is all the way up to this concept of enlightenment. Everything really is just a reflection of who I am inside.
Kiyomi: So I also love that you brought up like 100% and that's when life starts to get a little bit more playful and a little bit more intimate after that, because we can do even the opposite, which is what other people think of me is actually a reflection of himself and all those type things that that. Right. Which can really be helpful for people who really struggle with that type of responsibility and hypersensitivity and really other people think of them. But there was something that you said, which was when I'm feeling good within myself or I'm feeling more aligned or just just feeling just good in general, then I believe you said that you notice that you find your partner more attractive. Was that what you said, that you find more of that kind of or maybe you feel more attraction to them, maybe not so physically, but almost more like this. The draw. Is that what I'm hearing?
Nicholas: Yeah, I would even say, like physically I would even say, like, I see them with completely different eyes.
Kiyomi: Have you noticed in any way? I'm so curious. I'm thinking I don't really work around this, but have you ever noticed if your own projection of attraction of what you think about your partner ever unconsciously had to do with what you think about yourself and your own attractiveness? Does that ever come up for you in your journey?
Nicholas: I've wondered about it. I haven't spent too much time either thinking about it or doing work in that area. But I recognize that, like, maybe not in like I said, maybe on a physical level. I haven't spent too much time in that space. But again, my attractiveness to myself. Definitely is reflected positively or negatively in how I relate to my partner. What I'm trying to say is whether I feel attracted to myself and really like wanting to go inward and just like love on all these infinite, beautiful parts of myself and just like to embrace all the complexity. And sometimes that complexity is like wanting to be in a relationship and like, oh yeah. Like again, like recognizing that, like, of course I have like "conflicting parts of me", whatever the heck that means. Like, I'm infinite, you know, I'm beautiful and infinite. So there's times where I like I'm just able to embrace it all and love it all. And there's times where I'm less attractive to myself, meaning I'm more attracted to externalizing everything. I'm more attracted to going out there to find my peace, to find my fill in the blank. Right.
Kiyomi: I mean, what's so fascinating about this is that we're continually coming to the state of moving away from codependency to our wholeness. Coming back into, like, more of a secure nervous system, first off. But then at the end of the day, recognizing that everything that we start to shift changes within ourselves when we start to heal and work through those parts within ourselves, that's actually when things outside start to shift. And I think that with ROCD, if you actually know with ROCD that there's so much of that external, like you talked about, that need to constantly be fixing. If I can fix this person on this side and fix this attractiveness or have this type of person, then I will feel secure and whole with it. And it's kind of like mixed feelings with that, because sometimes when they say that for some people, there's this sense of like grief of like, oh, but like I have to take accountability and ownership for my own wholeness and my love. And that can sometimes be that grief of I thought that I was going to find something out there finally for that end result. Sometimes that plays a part. But then there's this other part for people where they come into the sense of like freedom or they're like, wow, I don't have to constantly be chasing out there for my family, my inherent happiness, or to find finally somehow some person, some car or some relationship, some perfect partner in order for me to feel good and whole within myself.
Nicholas: To have your birthright. Right. To have your birthright.
Kiyomi: Exactly. I can actually have that within myself. And so I kind of like mixed messages sometimes, both because I want to remind everyone that we can feel multiple emotions at the same time. And it's not so black or white where sometimes you can feel the sense of like, oh, this sucks, I hate this. I'm so angry. I was taught something so different and now I have a responsibility. And there can also be a sense of peace there. But I'm curious, Nicholas, if you've ever felt any of those types of emotions when you kind of came into that realization or if any of that of what I kind of said resonated with you, within your own journey?
Nicholas: Yeah, so, I mean, as someone who has always been interested in what I call spiritual development, you know, I'm learning more and more how silly words are
Kiyomi: going to this phase of my life to where I'm like the identification of this being spiritual and not who decided at all, I think we can talk about. But also in a sense where we kind of can talk about this a little bit toward the end of the podcast, but like the identification of ROCD as well and being identified in that, it's interesting. It's we do it, I think, in a way to compartmentalize, to give a certainty. But it's really interesting. Sorry, I kind of went off tangent.
Nicholas: No, not at all. It's like it's so true. I think you and I even like that. We talked about that briefly. Like, I'm and I keep saying, like, you might even notice my energy shift or I, like, look down when I'm, like, describing anything is spiritual because I'm like, I'm so tired of this. And yet, like, I, I don't know how else to do it because words are like in some way all we have to like, relate to deeper concepts, you know. So I find myself like that's what I say. Like I work as a spiritual teacher and healer in some sense. And so that's the role I choose to play here on Earth. And so I find myself using that word. I find myself saying I'm attractive to like I'm attracted excuse me to like spiritual circles. But, you know, I hate it because I have this identification, this whole idea that there's such a thing as spiritual or spiritual is so off base.
Kiyomi: Right. Really. And I think there's nothing wrong with it until we create some sort of separation and we create some sort of shame and kind of discrimination around your lower, your higher, you're better or worse. Right. That's kind of when the words kind of start to get a little bit confusing or so limiting. I think when it becomes limiting, that's when the suffering and that's when the separation really begins. But I understand what you're saying with that.
Nicholas: Yeah, it's like the separation happens. Like even if we don't do the higher or lower thing, we're creating separation where we say spirituality is meditating. If you don't meditate, you're not spiritual. Right? Like spiritual means, like I don't dress a certain way or like eating certain things. Like, it's all so silly. I just want to point that out. It's also silly and it's not the topic of this conversation. So to move on. But it's also so silly. What did you ask me again?
Kiyomi: I think that I asked about I'm trying to think, what would I even ask about
Nicholas: whether I have experienced it.
Kiyomi: Right. Whether you've experienced something and I'm trying to remember what it is, maybe it's meant to come back. Oh, this is a conflicting feel like I now remember the conflicting feelings, feeling a sense of like grief of like, oh, man, this person can't give me the fulfillment that I'm wanting to feel finally at a state of completion versus, oh, my God, this person can't give that to me and this kind of freedom. I'm curious if you had both emotions playing at the same time or you felt more than the other, you know, if you've ever kind of gone through that within your own journey.
Nicholas: For sure. Thank you for bringing us back to the town that we got here. Yes, absolutely. And that is like even that it's liberating right there to say that, like, I can feel liberated by taking personal responsibility and I can feel a sense of responsibility by taking personal responsibility, like even to allow both of those things to exist within my again, my infinite field is liberating in a sense. But yeah, I can say that, like my whole life, I've been aware of being the only one responsible for my happiness in different areas. And so it's very funny to me how relationships for many years weren't one of those areas somewhere. I learned to separate that. So I've been for as long as I can remember, I've said money. The money is not going to be the thing that's going to make me happy. I've had what I call that was what I really do, whether it's wisdom or not, I'll leave that up to the listeners. But I've always said I'm wise enough, even as a child, to know money's not going to be the answer. The big house, the fancy car never attracted any of it, because I've always had the wisdom that that's not the answer. It's not what's going to make me truly happy. I've always known it's about you know, it's about spending quality time with loved ones. It's about my relationship to myself. So in all these different areas I've known, blank external things are not the answer. And yet somehow, again, my pain and my lots and different life experiences that I had made me cope in such a way that I wasn't the same with relationships. And I said, relationship, the right one is going to be the answer,
Kiyomi: and I think what's so interesting about that, because I've worked with a lot of people who identify as male who they've said actually the exact same thing that you said they've been like in this area of my life, I've been good or in this area of my life I felt grounded or this area of my life I've had so much wisdom, like you said, but in relationships, it's been so hard. And actually that's kind of been like a mind twist for them because it's confusing. It's almost like but I understand it in this way. Why can't I get it in a relationship? Maybe that means I'm not supposed to be with them. Right. So it could kind of be like a bypass toward understanding, which is that relationships do bring up our attachment styles and our wounds and so do other things like careers. And some people struggle in their careers. Some people struggle with money and health and vice versa. But our relationships are really the place to bring up our attachment styles and our trauma. And that's kind of what I'm hearing from you, which was you understood other components or other avenues or you had wisdom with that. But for relationships, you noticed that you were seeking constantly that fulfillment or the perfection within that. And that probably was confusing for you in some way.
Nicholas: Absolutely confusing. And again, I've certainly felt like both of these different emotions and both of them at the same time feeling like, oh, it's all on me now. Oh, my gosh, that's overwhelming in a sense. And also, oh, my gosh, it's all on me. Everything is my choice. And I think that word choice is so important, too, because I just heard now when you were talking about these other men that you've worked with and they say, oh, this is happening. This must mean like this must mean I got to leave my relationship. This must mean I got to be single or whatever it is that whole this must mean takes away. Like the main thing about being a human, which is choice. Right.
Kiyomi: Isn't that true?
Nicholas: Yeah. That's like I chose to be here and I could dance around it all sorts of thousands of ways, but I'm here until I choose not to be right. It's always up to me to choose to be here or choose not to be here. Something is making me choose to be here. By the way, when I find your work and whatever, I'm still clearly choosing to be in it and choosing to do the work rather than choosing to jump ship. So like everything has always been a choice. And like, you know, the human ego, this like it's this big game of wanting to have the answer. Right. And when you have the answer, when you have certainty and you're sure of something, it's kind of like pushing away anything that conflicts with your certainty. Right. Any sort of like evidence to the contrary that comes in the field. You're like, do you think I got a baseball bat? You're just swinging it all the way, right? Just hitting everything that comes at you. And so to go back to your original question, I really do think liberation comes when we're able to allow it all to come in. And sometimes we're allowed to both be a little bit stressed or overwhelmed or disappointed that there's not something out there that's going to be the answer. And to see the freedom in that, like we're allowed to have those both exist and be like, oh, okay, I'm allowed, I'm allowed, I'm giving myself permission, for God's sake. You know, I'm allowed to feel both like I want to be single sometimes and that I want to be in a relationship. I'm allowed to have both of those feelings literally at the exact same time and say everything's allowed Nick, but what's your choice? What are you going to choose right now? And I choose to be here, I choose to be in my relationship because it's it's awesome and she's awesome, you know,
Kiyomi: for empowerment lies, right? I think that the other part that I love that you said that about that phrase that you said, oh, man, I forgot that specific phrase. But it was something like, oh, this must mean this, right? Because I feel this and this must mean there's almost like this is like a precondition predestined idea of if you feel grief, then X, Y and Z and that's it. There's no other form of choice that you have and you're kind of stuck in that box. Is that victim aspect of I have no choice versus moving into a more awakened state, which is not not saying one is better than the other, but saying, okay, I actually have a choice, that's my empowerment and that moves us away from that first state, which is, you know, I'm stuck in this. I have no choice. Right. And that's one of the biggest pieces with Awaken into Love and being human and understanding that we are our stories. We aren't our identity. And I know that you and I talked about this as well, identifying with having ROCD, identifying with, you know, kind of that journey of I am ROCD or this is who I am. Would you be able to talk just maybe a little bit about that, just in terms of, like, your own awakening, in your own kind of realization with having identified? We all do. And we do it in a way that's actually important when we're starting up this journey. But maybe how you start to move a little bit away from that or kind of your own journey with identifying pieces of ROCD.
Nicholas: Yeah, it's like it reminds me what you were saying just now. It reminds you of like. Getting like the whole like X means Y and stepping more into personal responsibility, and that my life is a choice to remind you of, like getting off of a conveyor belt and like getting onto the path, you're like you're not like that. Everything is predestined and like, oh, because of this, it means that I'm heading in this direction. Right. It's like everything is like I'm putting one foot in front of the other and, you know, I can choose to go this way, that way, whatever the heck I want to spin around in circles if I want to us do. But with the identification thing as well, it's it comes back to that whole idea of words and how words can be very helpful for communication. And they also in some ways get in the way of like this deeper connection and communication that happens without words. The same is true with labels in a way we can we can see that. Taking on a certain label or I should say identifying with a certain label rather than hopefully becoming it can be very helpful at different times in our life. But I almost want to say that, like, every time we get attached to something or we identify with with a certain label, it's almost, I think, to use it as a tool in the short term and eventually shed the label like what did what did Alan Watts say something about like when you get the message, hang up the telephone, something like that,
Kiyomi: the phone thing. Yeah.
Nicholas: Or like when there's another one, there's another great metaphor about using a boat to get across the river and then you don't carry the boat. Once you get across the river, you don't continue to carry the boat. Right. That's kind of the same with the label. When I first came to your videos, I first said to myself, oh, what's going on here? Maybe there's something here for me. Maybe this is what it is. Even as someone who had this aversion to labels back then, I remember thinking this might be like a jacket that I could try on for a little while and I might be able to use this as a lens through which to see my experience. And I don't know if I said it so profoundly and consciously, but I remember having that feeling that like, what if it is this right? What if it's not just like I'm in the wrong and everything sucks and all I feel is pain and shame? What if it is something deeper? Right. What if this is pointing me towards a deeper anxiety that exists in my life that at the end of the day has nothing to do with the R, it's all about the OCD part. It's all about the anxiety part. Right. What if the R is just like the projection part. So I remember for a while it was. I mean, now, if you ask me, do I don't identify as someone who has ROCD, I identify as someone who's been through and continues to go through this journey of awakening, and I could call it even the ROCD journey, but like I'm calling it the journey of Awakening, because that's what it is like. I'm on this endless path of awakening. And at this stage in my life, the doorway for awakening, for greater awakening happened to be relationships and how I relate to relationships. But five years from now, it might be something entirely different. Five minutes from now, it might be something entirely different. So I wouldn't say like I don't have that label, that identification with it at all anymore. It was something that allowed me to again, it was a lens through which to view my experience, to gain greater insight and to work with for a bit. And it allowed me to see all of the things and to be willing to see all of the things that were hiding under the surface that I was running from.
Kiyomi: It was a boat that was able to take you to the place that you needed for your next step of healing. But you're not going to take that boat with you. I love that. And I think that you've said so beautifully the reasons for, you know, that why we identify ourselves with certain things. So I'm curious. I would love to hear from you because I think that this will help the audience. Why do you feel it's important for people to start to let go of that identity? Because there are people. Right. Okay, so the ROCD journey. In the beginning, just like you said, it is important to be like, oh, this is what I'm kind of working with or this is something that's going on. But then in the middle, what is equally as important is for us to start to let go of I am ROCD, ROCD dictates my life. This is my identity. Why do you feel in your perspective, Nicholas, why do you feel it's important for people to go through that journey of letting go of that identity or start slowly starting to move away from I am this this is who I am and this is how my life is?
Nicholas: Sure. Yeah. Because if you ask, some things are universal. If you ask anybody if they want to be hurt and feel pain, they would say no. If you ask anybody if they want to feel imprisoned or if they want to feel free, feel free and liberated, they would say, I want to feel free and liberated. And so, you know, it can be spiritual, bypassing in some way to say, like, give up all your attachments and all that. Kind of like it gets a little nonsensical in some ways because it's important to feel love and to relate to other people and even enjoy objects and things like that. But at the same time, we know that, like, the more we want to carry with us, the more things we want to, like, put into our backpack, like the heavier the backpack gets. Right. And what do we really want? We want to feel freedom. And so it comes back to this idea of choice. For me, it's like, yeah, it can be helpful to take on an identity. And like I said, kind of like wearing it like a jacket and walking around with it for a while. But at the end of the day, I think every day we wake up and we ask ourselves, we have the ability. That's what makes us human, is this ability to wake up every day and say. Am I going to choose to wear this jacket today? Am I going to continue to wear it because it's helping me and you know, it's brought me to a greater feeling of freedom, what we all really want, or is it constricting in some way? Has it become like this thing that like who should I just walk out of the house that I'm not wearing the jacket. I got to run back inside and get it, you know, like even if it's not a cold day, you've got to really get that jacket because you've become so attached to the jacket. So I don't know, the jacket metaphor might have I might have lost it along. I'm hearing this like I don't know if this is my best one yet, but yeah, it's this idea that, like, it really does come down to choice and that, like, we can continue to choose to wear that identity for a long time for as long as it serves us. But I think for all of us, there is a time I can't say when it is because it's different for everybody. But there's a time where we're able to step more and more into the choice and we're able to recognize that, like I chose to identify with that label. And at some point I will choose not to write. I will choose to not need to define myself and recognize more and more that like being human is knowing that I am infinite and I can choose everything. Just like I said earlier, like I choose the role that I play in this world. I could choose to be a basketball player. I could choose to be a doctor. I could choose to be a spiritual educator and healer. That's the game I'm playing, right? You're born, you die. And in between, you make some choices and that's the game.
Kiyomi: It's so true. And what I'm really hearing a lot and within this podcast is the power of choice. It's really, really the power of choice and choosing and knowing that we can choose and we have that empowerment. And I'm also just hearing this idea of, you know, identifying. I think the power of the beginning of identifying is, yes, it helps us. But as we start to heal more on this journey, we start to move a little bit more into the gray where we go into am I attracted to this person or am I not? We move into the state of I don't have to identify. I can just identify and be in the state or not identify. I kind of set that a little bit wrong. I can instead, instead of identifying and saying I'm black or white, I can say sometimes I am, sometimes I'm not. Many times I'm interested in doing this. Sometimes I'm not. Sometimes I feel this way, sometimes I'm not. So when we get to that state, it means that we've actually moved more into a secure nervous system. Right. Where before we might have been more anxious, avoidant or disorganized. When we start to heal those things, we break away from needing to identify so much like you're saying, and moving more into the state of I am this infinite being. And when that happens, then we actually can love our partner even more because we see them as an infinite being, as not being attractive or not as intelligent or not, as spiritual or not. And when we heal those things within us and we say, I am infinite, I'm not so black or white, I'm not my identity, that we can actually start to love our partner on the planet even more.
Nicholas: Oh, man, that's so true. You're so amazing and so amazing and everybody's so amazing. It's true. Like we're all so amazing and like it's because we're infinite, you know? And it's because, like. Yeah, it's because everything in this I don't want to get like deep into like I'm about to get like deep into like Vedanta philosophy. You're like Eastern Hindu philosophy. But like, the truth is, they're like everything in this world, whatever this world is like is very much a yes no. And I don't mean black or white. I don't mean yes or no. It's like a yes or no. Like everything. Like all all seeming all apparent contradictions are like existing at once, you know what I mean? So I really like this idea that, like, we really take away in some sense the the beauty of this like infinite world and all of the infinite people by wanting them to be a certain way or needing them to be a certain way. And we can't say that we're like that with other people, but we're not with ourselves. Right. Every time I want you or other people to be a certain way or to fit a certain mold, I'm balancing that right back at me. And I'm not accepting like how. Pardon my language, like how fucking beautiful I am, just the way I am, you know, and that's the ROCD journey. Excuse me. In a nutshell. For me, it's I'm getting emotional again. It's like that it's this whole it's it's again, it's like the door that you walk through to have this greater ability to accept everything kind of just as it is. It's not in a spiritual bypassing way, not like, oh, I'm just going to like everything to do that either. Right. Like not that form of acceptance. It's just like this really, like the true liberation of letting things exist as they are letting myself hold multiple emotions, letting my partner be some days so sexy to me and other days like I don't feel that pull it as much. It's like whatever like everything is just coming and going. And I'm like, I'm just here to watch it. Right. I'm just here for the right.
Kiyomi: Nick, thank you so much. I just want to almost just end there and just end because I was as I was listening to you, it's like that is really the essence of what we're talking about. And that's really the essence of this whole journey. Right. And this constant state of awakening into love and being in this place of deeper awakening within yourself and their partner and then the world and coming into just this greater form of love deeper and deeper within ourselves. So I thank you so much, Nick. Thank you so much. I really want to also ask you for the people who would love to follow your work and the incredible offerings and the work that you do, how can they find you if they're interested in following the incredible wisdom that you always show to the world?
Nicholas: Well, thank you, first of all, thank you for having me. This is awesome, and I love you so much and I love everyone. I love me and I love myself like so much more because I've been on this journey with you. So thank you for that. I really am eternally grateful for everything you and Alexis and this community has done for me and yeah, for anyone who's interested in following my work and what I do. I work as a spiritual healer in the inka medicine tradition. It's the most beautiful work I've ever done and I'm so grateful to be a part of it and I'm so grateful to share this medicine with other people. So I've been active for a few years now on Instagram at the Wave and the Ocean is my name there, and I post a pretty good combination of helpful, helpful spiritual developments and also some pretty hilarious memes, if you ask me.
Kiyomi: Equally important and equally as healing.
Nicholas: Yeah, absolutely. That's the most important part actually for me. But yeah, you can find me there, the wave and the ocean on Instagram or check me out on my website www.waveandtheocean.com
Kiyomi: Beautiful. Thank you so much, Nicholas. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for sharing your wisdom. Thank you. Thank you.
Nicholas: Thank you, Kiyomi