Are You Afraid What Others Think of You & Your Partner with ROCD? (ft. Katie)

Also available on Apple iTunes -Awaken into Love Podcast

Kiyomi: [00:00:00] Hi, everyone. Welcome to the Awaken into Love podcast, we're on episode number 20 today. I am so thrilled, so excited, as always, to be interviewing someone really special. This person is someone who has been in the AIR program for almost a year now and has had transformational work and has been just really an inspiration for a lot of people and in my eyes, and I'm just so honored to be interviewing this person today. And today's topic, we're going to be talking about something that I know will resonate with all of you. And that's around the topic of what others think of us, our friends, our family members, society peers, even therapists and coaches or professionals that we bump into that we really take personally with what they say or whatever they may say or don't say kind of tends to perhaps trigger our ROCD or relationship anxiety and can bring us into moments of spiraling and defeats. I was really surprised when Katie and I were talking because she brought up this topic, and I feel that she has a lot of knowledge and wisdom with this. And she said, Why don't we talk about, you know, what, what family may think about our partnership or what friends may think of us? And I was like, Oh my God, that is such a good idea. I can't believe we never really talked about that. So I know that this podcast episode is going to be really special. I know it's going to resonate with all of you in some shape or form. And I'm just so excited to have Katie here. Katie is from the United States, and again, she's been in the AIR program for a while. And I'm so excited to have her welcome, Katie. [00:01:37][96.8]

Katie: [00:01:39] Well, thank you Kiyomi. That obviously made my day. [00:01:42][3.7]

Kiyomi: [00:01:43] Oh, I'm so happy to have you. I think that this is a really good topic. Do you remember a couple of days ago where I was like, like, almost shocked when you brought up this topic, whereas like, this is so brilliant. Like, I'm really surprised we've never talked about this, and I would assume that you probably, you know, being in the AIR program and meeting with so many people like having your AIR buddies and, you know, knowing a lot, of course members, you've probably seen this exact topic and how they struggle with it in some way too, right, like it's not something where you're like, Oh, this is just me. Like, it's something that you've been seeing a lot with people. [00:02:12][29.3]

Katie: [00:02:14] Oh yeah, I think a lot of the questions that we get in AIR have to do with being afraid of outside opinions. And I know that when like, I still struggle with it today sometimes, but like especially when I was really in the thick of it, that was one of the hardest things for me to like, grapple with. [00:02:34][20.8]

Kiyomi: [00:02:36] It's a really hard one, and it's it can be so challenging because it can be so close and personal because it's either like our family members that we see all the time or our friends that we see all the time, or even when we're seeking help, where we might go to a therapist or who might go to a doctor. And we might be like, You know, I'm really struggling with this. And sometimes therapists or doctors can kind of dismiss it or give us another opinion, and we can really take that personally in a lot of ways. And I know that you express that that's something that even happened to you. [00:03:08][32.5]

Katie: [00:03:10] Oh, yeah, that was like something that pushed me off of getting help for a really long time, actually. There was a period where I was aware of the program itself, but I went to a therapist and my experience with that person was so triggering and absolutely made me not want to talk to anybody about what was going on. [00:03:39][28.4]

Kiyomi: [00:03:39] It can be really traumatizing and it can be really, really scary. So what we're going to talk about today just for a recap for all the listeners, is we're going to really go into what other people think about us in our relationship and how that affects ROCD. We'll talk about societal issues that are perpetuated by the media and how that can cause a lot more anxious thinking and obsessive thoughts, will go into a therapist, not a therapist. I'm sorry, therapists. And how even though they can be "qualified", it doesn't mean that they really can understand what's going on. And we'll talk about how to pronounce this. But it was brilliant when you brought it up. Occam's Razor. Oh, is that how you pronounce it? Or Oh? [00:04:20][40.8]

Katie: [00:04:22] It's Occam's Razor, Occam's Razor. [00:04:23][1.5]

Kiyomi: [00:04:24] We'll talk about that, which is something so interesting, but I, you know, heard for the first time from you. You know, and start to really just talk about how we can start working with this. So we'll be kind of diving into that today. So Katie, what I would love to hear from you is how this specific topic has shown up for you and your life. I know you talked about, you know, being afraid of different people's opinions, but how do you feel it has really morphed with ROCD and relationship anxiety for you? [00:04:50][26.6]

Katie: [00:04:52] Well, I have always been someone who has really cared about what people in my life think about what's going on. And I know, like when I was younger, I would like if I was in a relationship, everybody had to meet the boyfriend and so everybody had to approve. And so like, that's already something that was always in the back of my mind. And so when I started dating my partner, he was wonderful. And like, it was going like, I thought I had everybody in the beginning. And then after a certain point, somebody in my life had kind of broken down and been like, I'm not sure about him, while I was still in the honeymoon phase. So I was kind of like, Okay, you know that? I mean, I'll look out for it. But I was fine for like a little bit, but because I was still in that honeymoon phase and so I was like, I have all these feelings for him. And so there's no problem, there's nothing going on. But then as time went on I hit both the end of the honeymoon phase and our first like real disagreement at the same time. And that was terrifying to me because that whole time between like that expression of doubt to that fight, I had been looking out for something to happen. Like, I wouldn't be hyper, but [00:06:44][111.9]

Kiyomi: [00:06:45] When you say looking out for something to happen, was it because that close person had said something about your partner? And so it was kind of like you were hyper? Is that what you mean, where you were looking out because they said something? You're like, Oh, well, you know, they said something about my partner, so maybe I should be aware. Is that what you mean by that? [00:07:00][14.8]

Katie: [00:07:02] Yes, exactly. Every time, like because I always thought for a long time, I thought that our first disagreement was when the ROCD started. But really, it started a long time before that because I remember these hyper vigilant moments where it's like if I was feeling a little less connected to my partner, I would be like, would panic all day and be like, Oh my God, oh my God. Like, something's really wrong. Or if he didn't get along with somebody, even if it wasn't really a big deal, I would be like, Oh my God. But then, like the next day, it would all work out and I'd be like, OK, I guess I don't have to worry about it anymore. [00:07:37][35.3]

Kiyomi: [00:07:42] What were some of the things you were saying? Like, I think you said something about if he would get a disagreement or if there was something happening with your partner and someone else? Is that what you said, that you would start to kind of go into obsessive thinking? What were some of the thoughts that would come into your mind at that moment, like? Is he right for me? Do they like him? Like what were some things that were spiraling for you? [00:08:02][19.6]

Katie: [00:08:03] Oh, it was like it was like my friend and him, they I mean, they got along and they eventually are like really good friends, but when they first met, they had opposite personalities. So then I was panicking and I was like, Oh my God, if he doesn't get along with this friend, if he doesn't like this friend, we're going to have to break up. Like, I can't deal with that. And then I would just start spiraling and be like, Oh my God, like, he's not right for me. He's not right. It's like, something's wrong here. Like, he's not a good person, right? He's not good or like he doesn't like my friend. And obviously, then, but like we are like, we're so close. And Oh my god, [00:08:49][45.3]

Kiyomi: [00:08:50] And all of these types of thoughts. So my question for you with that is so from what I'm hearing, even if you, your boyfriend and your friends personality, it's not like I'm hearing that they had a conflict or something big erupted, right? It was more of a sense of like their personalities are different. And then it would kind of start to spiral into maybe that means that they don't like each other, and maybe that means that we have to break up. So went from really like this like that something that is like, you know, just so part of being human with having different personalities is something so catastrophic and something so, you know, anxiety provoking because I can imagine just having that specific thought and then just going into this place of, Oh my god, I'm going to lose my partner because of someone with a different personality. [00:09:34][43.2]

Katie: [00:09:36] Yeah, exactly. It was like they got along, they actually like hanging out, they enjoy each other's presence, but it wasn't like they were talking all the time and they weren't best friends, like I was best friends with that person. [00:09:48][11.8]

Kiyomi: [00:09:50] yeah, he's that. He's not right for me. So did you notice that this would happen also or specifically with people you were closest to? Or was there this tendency to go into obsessive thinking and anxiety, even if it was someone from the street? Like, were you able to notice that it was more intense with the people you're closest to versus maybe someone that you didn't really know? [00:10:12][21.4]

Katie: [00:10:14] Yeah, it was definitely like if it was somebody I knew and like had to or wanted to interact with a lot if they weren't best friends right away, if it wasn't like, oh, he's been accepted into the fold and he's like meshes so perfectly well with everybody. Then it was like, Oh, well, it's not right then. [00:10:36][22.6]

Kiyomi: [00:10:37] Yeah, like it's just so black or white. [00:10:39][1.7]

Katie: [00:10:43] And it was so black or white. It was so very exhausting, it's not like friendships build over time, it was like, oh, if he hasn't been accepted into the fold on the first try? [00:10:51][8.6]

Kiyomi: [00:10:52] Yes, absolutely. And then I know that you were saying something about that one person that was really close to you that did speak to you about your partner. Did this happen prior to those situations, or did you notice that it had kind of always been there? [00:11:07][14.8]

Katie: [00:11:10] I had always been a little bit nervous just because it was the beginning of a relationship and I had had some adverse rejections in my life, so I was a little nervous, but everything seemed to be going well and I was OK. And that opinion kind of switched on the hypervigilance. Yeah. Like. And like, that's when I had never panicked until that time, like until that opinion came out and then when we finally had that first disagreement, that's when it went full fledged into I am obsessing about this constantly and it was like a crisis. Yeah. [00:11:52][42.1]

Kiyomi: [00:11:53] And so that I'm assuming became a really big, main focus for the ROCD and the relationship anxiety where if there was a sense of maybe disconnection or conflict, it would probably erupt a greater and you would think about that previous conversation and think about the the person who was really close to you and what they said and then kind of bring that up in your mind and start to ruminate over that of maybe they were right or what were some of the thoughts that came into your mind? [00:12:19][25.9]

Katie: [00:12:21] There was definitely this feeling of I can't trust my perception. Because I had been so like I had thought so positively of my partner, and all of a sudden there was something wrong. And I was like, Nothing can be wrong because then that person's opinion's right and it was like this battle inside of me that was like, I want to trust myself and trust my opinion, but obviously, somebody on the outside saw something that I didn't cause, and now I can "see it". [00:13:02][41.2]

Kiyomi: [00:13:03] Yeah, no, that makes complete sense. I can imagine one how difficult that would cause. ROCD itself really can take someone into a place of breaking their own self trust. Like, what thoughts do I believe? What is right? And it can be just so confusing. And that's why people really grasp onto outside senses of some sort of certainty, like the other person's opinions or like a horoscope or like the idea of intuition because there is this kind of breakage within themselves that happens with ROCD, and that's something that I'm hearing happen to you when you got into that conflict or when you fell into that out of that Honeywood phase is kind of like, OK, out of Honeywood phase, now conflict, now lack of self trust, because this person that was really close to me said this about my partner. So how can I trust myself? Do I trust myself in this way? Do I trust my partner? And I'm sure there was probably some push and pull happening with how you were feeling about your partner too. [00:14:00][57.2]

Katie: [00:14:03] Oh, yeah, it had happened right before I was going to go home for a holiday. And I was, like, constantly seesawing between like I have to break up with him because there's this problem and you can't like you can't deal with a problem like here's a strong, independent woman. But then this like over, well, yeah, we can get into that too, [00:14:33][30.0]

Kiyomi: [00:14:35] Very good topic. Yeah. [00:14:37][1.8]

Katie: [00:14:37] Yeah, I was very into society's claims about life don't dealing with bullshit. While our disagreement was not really bullshit. Yeah, there was a major push and pull in my mind. I was. It was very black and white in there. I had always been kind of a black and white thinker. But it was very extreme, like, you can't deal with anyone giving you any problems because you are a strong, independent woman, which is a topic we'll probably go into. But then, yeah, and then this intense like, but I don't want to break up with him. I really don't want to break up with him. But then what really pushed me over the edge into this really obsessive, scary place was that, if I I felt like if I talked to anybody about it, they were going to tell me to break up with him. [00:15:34][56.4]

Kiyomi: [00:15:34] Yes, yes. And then I'm sure, well, the other person who had explained, I just can't imagine, like, I'm just I'm feeling so much for you because I understand this specific compulsion in a lot of way, and also there's the specific pain very well just in terms of other people's opinions, and I used to be so hyper focused on that. So I really understand that, I'm just imagining that one person who was so close to you saying that specific thing and then having said that and you feeling a distrust toward yourself and how that opinion would come on whenever you felt disconnected and then not OCD and how much that probably just spiraled so much of that emotional pain and confliction, then the belief of I'm a strong, independent woman, which I just want to add in a lot of cases. I would say most cases when people kind of go into, I'm a strong, independent woman I don't need anyone is a very strong representation of an avoidant attachment style. It's a blockage, right? It's kind of like hyper focus. Oh, almost away from another person in order to feel like I don't need anyone because if I need someone that makes me vulnerable or that means that you know, something bad could happen. So it's really interesting that you brought that up. But I'm just thinking about all of these influences and how stressful that must have been for you. [00:16:54][79.2]

Katie: [00:16:56] Yeah, it was really horrible, because that person was somebody that in a normal situation I would go to to discuss this like when I'm upset, and so I didn't feel like I could talk to anybody about it. So I was just like crying all the time, which of course, then they would make that connection and then think worse about my partner. And I was like, I felt like self sabotage, but I couldn't stop. [00:17:26][30.0]

Kiyomi: [00:17:27] Right? So Katie, [00:17:28][1.2]

Katie: [00:17:29] in this horrible mindset and couldn't like. And yeah, and I couldn't express myself or like, yeah, or get help, really? [00:17:40][11.8]

Kiyomi: [00:17:41] So was there any situation where I knew you talked about this close individual and how their opinion really, you know, was really hurtful for you and in a lot of ways. Did you speak to other friends or did you speak to other people about what was going on? Because I know that you said that you had a period where you were very close and you're like, I can't really speak to anyone. But did you also notice yourself going to a place like speaking to a lot of people about what was going on because you were probably in such a confused state? [00:18:07][26.1]

Katie: [00:18:09] Oh, yeah. There was a period where I was just kind of emotionally vomiting. I have this one friend who I love her to death and I feel so bad that she had. She just happened to be in that line of fire in that situation. But she had, like, called me to check in on me, and I was still in that period of crying all the time and being obsessed. And so I just kind of was like, I'm freaked out. And like, I don't know, like, I'm so like, I can't stop thinking about it and I'm so upset, but it's like, I don't want it to happen. And of course, like with all, she just wanted to look out for me. But she said she was like, Well, maybe you just need to break up. And I absolutely lost my mind. [00:18:55][46.3]

Kiyomi: [00:18:59] Of course, you're like that's the end of it. You're like,I just imagine the breakdowns after the breakdowns and the obsessive thoughts that came after that? [00:19:04][5.2]

Katie: [00:19:06] Yeah, exactly. I was just sobbing. I think it was somewhere public, too. I think I had a lot of public breakdowns. [00:19:14][7.8]

Kiyomi: [00:19:16] Because it's just so you're like holding so much and then you're in front of other people and you know, it can. It's just so confusing. [00:19:24][8.8]

Katie: [00:19:27] Yeah, and it's just everything feels so wrong, because it's this person that knows you and cares about you and they don't want to see you hurting, and so they're just trying to give you the best advice that they can. But it was just it made me sick to my stomach because there was this part of me that was like, I don't want to let go of my partner. I know he's good. I know we are great. But just like I can't stop. [00:19:52][25.4]

Kiyomi: [00:19:54] Right. And I think that so many people will resonate with you when they're hearing this. I know so many people feel so defeated in terms of one wanting to talk to people about it, but then feeling really isolated because they're afraid that the person is going to say, Well, why don't you just leave your partner? Like, if you're having all these doubts, then why don't you just leave? And you know, that's kind of the simplest way for people to just give us advice. Let's go into that term that I know we talked about before. Would you be able to describe it again and say it again? Because I think this is brilliant. I know we had this conversation. I want to tie it into that because I know this term is specifically about how people make things so simple when it's a lot more complex, right? Would you be able to go into this term and what it means and related to ROCD for the listeners? [00:20:41][46.8]

Katie: [00:20:44] Yeah, it's Occam's Razor, which is the idea that usually the simplest explanation for something is the best one. So a lot of times it's used for like crime cases or like mysteries in history. But I feel like as a society, we kind of just use that for everything. We want everything to be simple and straightforward. And so when it comes to ROCD, someone on the outside that's never experienced it is just going to assume, Oh, you're having doubts or you think something's wrong, then probably something is wrong. And probably you need to take care of that by getting rid of it. [00:21:32][48.0]

Kiyomi: [00:21:32] Right, right. It's like if there's an issue that means that there's a problem, and if there's a problem, you need to get rid of it. Instead of looking at the situation and saying, OK, these doubts or obsessive thoughts are coming in. There's probably some coping mechanism. I mean, most people wouldn't go into this because a lot of people don't understand psychology and mental health, but they usually don't go into there saying that they're having doubts. That must mean there's coping mechanisms and maybe some trauma coming up in some attachment styles and some societal beliefs that need to be awakened. And people don't actually really go into that. But from what I'm hearing, it's the way that we see a situation or we see an issue. And we believe that in order to resolve that, it must go into the simplest form or the answer is simple, like, yeah, having doubts she needs to leave. [00:22:21][48.8]

Katie: [00:22:22] Like when it comes to human beings and their behavior, it's a lot more complex. But we also really like everything to be simple, so we kind of over use that concept. [00:22:32][10.3]

Kiyomi: [00:22:33] Right, right. So having a specific perspective is just important not only aside from friends, but also with any therapist or any coaches that we might bump into or any doctors that we may bump into to. Would you be able to talk a little bit about an experience I think that you had with a therapist in regards to ROCD and how Occam's Razor was kind of used in that situation? I'd love to hear about that. [00:22:56][23.3]

Katie: [00:22:58] Yes. So when I first started or I had a few weeks where I was just, like, really upset, and then I got to a point where I was like, I'm going to, I need to talk to somebody because I can't function anymore. So I went to a therapist who specializes in just like, run of the mill anxiety. And so she was just giving me things to handle my symptoms. And then I eventually it was like, I am like obsessing about my boyfriend and would say, like some of the thoughts that I was going into, like, I'm so scared that like he didn't get along with or like he, he and this person, our best friends or like and just a few more of those obsessive thoughts. And then she turned to me and was like, Well, maybe your heart's just not in it. Oh shit. Which then led to my other very public breakdown because I left her office, walked down the street and called my boyfriend in tears, saying my heart. I swear. [00:24:10][71.8]

Kiyomi: [00:24:14] Oh, I'm so sorry. I'm feeling. I feel so hard for so many people who I know can relate so much to you. The amount of times I have heard this similar story or a therapist saying, you know, Well, maybe, maybe they're just not ready for you and you need to kind of move on. That's like the Occam's razor that we were talking about. So blatantly obvious, right? There are a lot of therapists who don't understand trauma, unfortunately, and who don't understand ROCD or don't understand. In a lot of cases, I've seen some therapists even saying, like, I'm really not sure how to help this person. So I'm just going to say, maybe they're not right for you. Which is heartbreaking for me in a lot of ways, because I think that for some therapists, it's kind of like they don't want their ego involved in a sense where they don't want to say, I don't know how to help you. And instead, they say those exact things. I don't know in that situation if the therapist was feeling that way. But we definitely see that over and over again. And it can be so scary for someone who is in that confused state with ROCD who feels as though they can't really trust themselves and who holds a lot of value to others opinions and what they think of themselves and their partnership. So that must have been really hard for you. I have a lot of compassion for that. [00:25:29][75.6]

Katie: [00:25:32] Yeah, and it's doubly scary, because as somebody in the science community, when you hear like another professional, somebody who's gone through that training, they're like they know better than, you know, about mental states and stuff. It's disheartening. It's. It's horrifying. Yes. That's all I can think of. Yes, I think it was just like fear took over. I flee or fight or flight. [00:26:03][31.9]

Kiyomi: [00:26:07] I guess I'm running away crying on the boat. I think that there's such an interesting period. I actually think that this is actually a really empowering thing. So I'm going to just kind of frame it in this way. The experience that you had, where so for a couple of things, I think that as a society, we do to put too much emphasis on people who are maybe "qualified" or they are specialists that they should know or they're scientists so they should know or they're doctors so they should know which in some ways tends to like, disconnect us from our own empowerment that we have within ourselves. So there's the importance of both, right? It's really important, I think in a lot of cases to be like, OK, this person has a lot of education and I'm going to listen to them and see what I can take. But the damaging part is when we go into the place of everything that they're saying is right, and I'm going to listen to everything that they say instead of weighing in our own opinion and saying, Wait, does this therapist and what this therapist said doesn't really seem to resonate with me, and I'm going to take that in a way where I'm going to say, Hey, I'm not going to take this in and I'm not going to let that disempower me. I'm going to instead allow it to make me question more and maybe find someone different. So I think that that period that you're talking about, even though it's really difficult, I think it's actually really important for every single individual in society to kind of go through that stage of maybe not everyone that everyone says in society. I know we talked about this in ROCD and AIR doesn't have to always be right. And I get to question and decide my truth for myself and my story. [00:27:38][90.8]

Katie: [00:27:40] Yeah, it's yeah, I because. OK. I don't know how to start this, because the thing I always fear is that I don't want anybody to then swear off therapy or like medical professionals because they look like they are. There are people that are well trained. There are like good doctors and there are good therapists out there that are trained in these things. It's just an individual case by case. I think about people who go through chronic illness, go to doctors and they have to go to multiple to find the right diagnosis because some people aren't educated. So it's not like therapy is all wrong or like all medical professionals are wrong. It is a case-by-case situation and don't swear off the like, don't swear off medicine and don't swear off therapy just because of one bad one bad situation that you. [00:28:43][63.1]

Kiyomi: [00:28:45] Absolutely, I think I've told the community that I've been to like over 20 therapists and just in terms of finding someone specifically who understood it. For some reason, I had this inherent determination when I had ROCD, where I remember seeing multiple therapists until I could find one. Like, I had multiple sessions with so many of them and I had this inherent drive within me. I was like, I'm going to find a therapist who understands. And so I went through like 20 therapists throughout that time, and I said to myself, No, I'm going to find someone that really understands and is good for me. And I think that when we go into that mindset of, like all medical professionals are bad or all therapists are bad, we are going into a black or white situation and there's some distortion there. And so what you and I, Katie are saying is that we're not saying that to negate or push away like everyone or every situation because that's very black or white, but more so to question it, like if something doesn't resonate with you and something feels disempowering and something keeps you in this trap of feeling as though you have no empowerment, you have no choice. Then there's some red flags going on for you to start to look within and question, which is what I'm assuming you did, because then you started to work with another therapist, right, where you found some people who really started to help you, which is amazing. [00:30:01][76.1]

Katie: [00:30:03] Yeah, it took a little bit because I was so scared for so long, but then I started working with Alexis, actually. And that's when I finally started making progress and feeling better. [00:30:14][11.0]

Kiyomi: [00:30:15] Amazing. Amazing, incredible. So you didn't give up, you took that situation and then you were probably disempowered by that situation. And then you said, No, there's something within me that wants to keep going into question this right? Was that kind of the dialog that went in your mind? [00:30:32][17.0]

Katie: [00:30:33] Yeah. Not to go into another story, but like when I was younger, I also had a chronic illness. I got rheumatoid arthritis, and the first doctor that I encountered wanted to put me on this really intense drug. But then my mom actually was like, I had a similar or I had an experience with the autoimmune. And I think I have an idea and I want to try it before we go into an intense drug. And so but that doctor was like, No, no, we have to go, we have to attack this. But then she found a different doctor right away. And then we tried her. We tried her method and it worked. And so I think I had that in me that it's like, I know, like I know that I can go, look for somebody that's going to listen to me rather than try to tell me exactly what's going on and what I should do. [00:31:32][59.5]

Kiyomi: [00:31:32] Amazing. So it seems as what's so interesting about this is that there is that distorted part that's, you know, usually based in trauma or attachment styles and such that goes into this place of, Oh my god, everyone's opinion must be right, except mine. But then there's also this empowering part of you. It seems like almost this wisdom voice that's like, no wait, I'm going to question this. I'm going to find something until it works for me. And so I think that that's an amazing power of yours that kind of continues to draw you forward in a sense to be able to question things and to be able to say, Hey, you know, I'm going to find something that works for me. And I think that, you know, that's a very just wisdom filled empowering stance, even though sometimes it's probably hard to tap into that right. It's hard to tap into that when that part of our brain takes over that reptilian brain. Like, No, I need to figure out what other people think of me and my boyfriend and go into obsessive thinking and everything. [00:32:27][54.1]

Katie: [00:32:28] Yeah, that fear part is so strong and can take those parts of you that you thought were strong and that you are proud of and try to like, tamp down down to keep you safe. [00:32:40][12.4]

Kiyomi: [00:32:41] It's so true. It's so true. And that's why there's that's that's the part of the work, right? In so many ways, a lot of people think that if they're doing the quote unquote right thing, then it's going to feel easy, like a fear takes over. It's like, I got it. I understand it. I know ABC and I'm going to move through it. But it's a lot of that continual practice and that a lot of work, which I'm sure you've probably recognized within your own journey, too. [00:33:05][24.0]

Katie: [00:33:07] Oh yeah, very much so. Yeah, the fear brain loves to try to sabotage. [00:33:12][5.2]

Kiyomi: [00:33:14] It really does. It's like, I'm going to protect you as much as I can, and you're like, It's overprotective and you're actually hurting me now. [00:33:19][5.0]

Katie: [00:33:20] It's like, OK, but now we're not going to do anything right? [00:33:23][3.6]

Kiyomi: [00:33:24] Exactly. Now we're going to lay on the couch for months. Exactly. It's so fascinating. It's really, really it's just a really fascinating journey, and it seems as though you've been going through this journey, which is so fascinating to just witness and watch you grow out of this, you know, when you first started of really having that, that huge trigger and this one person saying something that really caused that turmoil within you and then kind of growing into this journey of starting to trust yourself, right? Would you say that that's that's more and more of what you're learning to go into is to self trust and moving away from not necessarily negating people's opinions, but seeing it and deciding if that works for you. [00:34:06][41.9]

Katie: [00:34:08] Yeah. Because when I first started doing the work, it was very much like those people have to be wrong. Or they have to be right and or if they're wrong, they're against me, very black or white. And as I've gone through working through the protective mechanisms that are causing that black and white thinking or that honestly is the protective mechanism, the black and white thinking itself I have been able to like have more empathy for when people go like, say, their opinions on things like instead of being like, Oh, they're so wrong or, oh, they're this bad person, it's like they like they're only working with the information they have. They're coming to me with their own baggage, their own experiences and a lot of people. When they give advice, they want to protect people from things that have happened to them, right? [00:35:12][64.0]

Kiyomi: [00:35:12] Projection. [00:35:12][0.0]

Katie: [00:35:15] Yes. And so it's like on top of being able to understand that, being able to hold space for them, but then not taking their story on. And writing my own instead. [00:35:28][13.1]

Kiyomi: [00:35:28] Amazing, so powerful. And such a journey, such a journey to be able to witness that. So what are some things that have been really helpful for you alongside that? When you notice yourself getting triggered, when you notice other people's opinions coming in, especially someone who's really close to you? How are some ways that you've been working with that and how have you been using that in order for you to have more closeness within yourself? [00:35:49][20.9]

Katie: [00:35:54] Really, that's not only holding space for them, but then holding space for the scared inner child within me and also having that understanding that as humans we are like biologically wired to connect to people. And so just knowing that people's opinions are always going to have an effect. On me. Because, like we all just want to be accepted, we all want to be understood and so. If they don't. It's hard, but at least I have it in my head, it's like I know that I want that. And that's going to be hard. And so that understanding gives me the space to be able to have compassion for myself in that moment. [00:36:46][52.0]

Kiyomi: [00:36:46] Oh, so beautiful. So what's something that's really common for people who tend to go into hyper responsibility? So it's interesting, hyper responsibility is a cognitive distortion, hyper responsibility for people who don't know or who haven't heard of it before is really the feeling that you're responsible for other people's feelings or you really take a lot of what other people are saying onto you and your own journey. And you really kind of enmeshed with other people in their opinions. So what other people say is almost like becoming your story instead of listening to your own truth and your own alignment. But what we've really noticed, especially with partnership when this comes up, is something that you explained about in the beginning. When you're your boyfriend and your friend, we're talking and you're like, Oh my God, if they don't like each other, then that means we have to break up. What we tend to notice over and over again when doing this work with ROCD and anxiety is that usually if people are in kind of that codependent state with their partner or kind of having that Wholeness Giveaway Syndrome, then they believe that their partner and them are one, which means that their partner must represent who they are. So in this situation for you, Katie, it would be my partner is me. I am my partner. So if someone has an opinion about my partner, that means that's their opinion about me. And that means that this person doesn't like me. So whenever we go into this place of like, Oh my god, what if they don't like my partner? Or maybe my partner is not attractive enough and other people are thinking they're not attractive or they're not intelligent enough, or they're maybe being too loud, then the core fear of that is usually well that means that another person is judging me and what they think about me, and I'm going to be abandoned. So the first piece is really bringing into that separation of we are separate beings. Right. My partner and I are separate whole beings, which is definitely that kind of complex fear. Did you go into that something kind of similar with that in the beginning? [00:38:41][114.2]

Katie: [00:38:42] Oh my god, yes. It was like it was like both ways because if I had a feeling that somebody was going to judge us or someone was not going to think that me and him are perfectly made for each other soulmates and absolutely going to end up together in the end. I felt like I had to defend him, even when he hadn't done anything right. I mean, like, it's like that. If he didn't feel like hanging out, it's like, Oh, he's just really tired and like, it's like and giving excessive reasoning when it was just like, you just like he couldn't and it's fine. [00:39:20][38.1]

Kiyomi: [00:39:20] Yeah. And maybe he just doesn't want to go. [00:39:21][1.3]

Katie: [00:39:22] Yeah, exactly. And he's allowed to do that. And then also on the other side, I'll be like, why can't you just go out with us? Like, we have to look good? And so going into nit picking, [00:39:32][10.4]

Kiyomi: [00:39:34] Trying to control, trying to go into nit picking because why and I really want to bring this up because a lot of people, when they start to notice themself, when we bring awareness, I don't know if you've noticed this in AIR, Katie, but we do a lot of journaling exercises and a lot of times we ask, you know, everyone in class like, do you kind of go into nit picking or is that irritation coming up? And what happens is people start to recognize that. And then there's a lot of shame. They're like, Why am I this way? I don't like being this way. I hate this about me. But would you be able to explain a little bit as to the science behind nitpicking? Like why we do that, why we go into nit picking with our partner, and how that's really tied into, you know, our way to kind of control our partner? [00:40:15][40.4]

Katie: [00:40:18] Yeah, I was going to say it's all related to control. We want to be able to control the outcome. And exactly, yeah, when we feel something's wrong, then like we have to like, micromanage everything till it finally feels right, which is a fruitless endeavor because one, it doesn't have anything to do with them. It has everything to do with your fears and insecurities inside. And then two also, you're probably going to make your partner feel like not great about it. [00:40:51][33.6]

Kiyomi: [00:40:51] Absolutely, absolutely. So would you be able to give an example, Katie, of kind of like nitpicking that you've done when you've noticed yourself because I really want to almost like, bring the listeners into the place of why we do the nitpicking, especially in regards to hyper responsibility and and feelings of like what other people think, why we do it, like the science behind it to bring compassion more and how to work with that. So would you be able to give an example, maybe something recently or something you've done in the past where maybe you're really afraid of another person's opinions or your friend's opinions, or you start to nitpick your partner? [00:41:22][30.7]

Katie: [00:41:24] Oh, yeah. There were some times where it's like we were going to be seen in public together and like get together with some friends and stuff and like beforehand, I would start being like, You know, you have to like, be nice, don't you have to like. [00:41:36][12.1]

Kiyomi: [00:41:41] I've done that too. So it's like, OK, like a pep talk in the beginning. Like okay, this is what it's going to look like, and you must be sweet. You must be nice, you must not act like this. [00:41:49][8.3]

Katie: [00:41:52] Exactly. It's like, don't get irritated with me in public. Like, it's like, you got it. We got to look cute. Because it's like it was like, if somebody sees us off, they're going to know that they're wrong. And then and then somehow that's going to make it right. [00:42:07][15.0]

Kiyomi: [00:42:08] Right, so would you be able to talk about the fear of that if someone were to see or think that you and your partner were wrong for each other? What comes up for you? What is the fear? Because the controlling and just wanting to show everyone this just to kind of take a step by step? The nitpicking happens because there's the fear that if someone thinks something bad about your relationship, then fear says what? What would your fear say, Katie? If someone thinks something bad about your relationship or you're not supposed to be together? [00:42:33][25.2]

Katie: [00:42:35] Well, my thought process was always like, because there's this idea that goes around, that's like when you're in a relationship, you can't see it clearly because of your feelings and stuff. And so people from the outside have a clearer, better view of what's going on. And so then it was like, if anybody sees that this is not perfect and if anybody sees that something bad is going on, it's going to make it real. It's going to make their incompatibility real. [00:43:06][30.3]

Kiyomi: [00:43:07] So let's dive into that for just a second. So if your incompatibility is real or if they have an opinion of you being like, Oh, I see this more clearly, you're both incompatible, then what? What does the fear say? [00:43:17][10.9]

Katie: [00:43:19] The fear says that you have to break up. Because he's not right. [00:43:23][3.8]

Kiyomi: [00:43:24] So I'm just going to pause again because I'd like to love this, Katie. I'm just going to pause again for all the listeners. You may have noticed that the nitpicking at the core of it comes down into maybe losing your partner or needing to break up with your partner. So it goes into the sense of like, I'm going to be hyper responsible and consciously try to manipulate and try to kind of control or nag at my partner to make sure that there are certain ways to have that control. So ultimately, I don't have to lose the person that I care about. So it's an amazing tactic that the unconscious brain does in order to keep us in a state of protection because we care. And all these coping mechanisms and a lot of ways have developed when we were younger, there were some different traumas that may have come up for us to feel as though we need to control the external environment. So thank you for sharing that with us, Katie, because I think that a lot of people can resonate with that, a sense of like nitpicking or hyper responsibility. And it's exhausting, right? I mean, it's exhausting to kind of go into the prepping and then you are probably conscious of what people are thinking, how are they looking? Are they looking at us a certain way? Are they saying something? Is my partner going to act a certain way? And then they probably in some way pick up the sense of like, why are they being so hyper? You know, what are they hiding or something when there's nothing there? Right?[00:44:41][77.7]

Katie: [00:44:44] It's like my partner would feel like he can't be his natural self or, well, OK, I'm going to give my boyfriend a lot of props because he is very chill and is usually just like Katie. And then we'll go about how his life is so healthy. I'm just like, what? But so, yeah, when it's like, he's already kind of on edge because he knows I'm upset and also feels like he might have to live up to something. But then when inevitably it doesn't go exactly how I thought in my head, then I'm disappointed. And then my brain is like see it didn't work out wrong. You need to leave. [00:45:22][38.4]

Kiyomi: [00:45:24] So it's almost like you're preparing yourself unconsciously to make sure you don't go into a state of obsessive thinking later. It's like, I'm going to control the situation now. So the obsessive thoughts don't get a hold of me and tell me I have to leave and make me feel defeated each time, like I'm not listening to something. So it also makes sense in combination with how that cycle goes back into that one person who said in the beginning that opinion. Right? And I personally, as I'm seeing this from an outside perspective or from, like, you know, doing this work that I think that your brilliance and your gift of healing here really comes back into other people's opinions and how to start to listen to yourself and how to lean on that right? Which is again, I think what ROCD is teaching you in a lot of ways. [00:46:11][46.9]

Katie: [00:46:12] Yeah, it's so interesting being like a couple of years out from the onset where when it first started, it was like, I have to solve if my boyfriend and I are good for each other after a long time, it's more like my boyfriend is fine and he is being himself. A lot of this is more. How can I take care of myself? How can I start taking care of myself? How can I start trusting myself? And how can I still hold these other relationships very important, but also not become enmeshed with them? [00:46:52][39.8]

Kiyomi: [00:46:53] Beautiful, beautiful. So in some ways, maybe just kind of before we end Katie, what are some ways that people can start to work with this? I know you gave a couple of different examples, but what are some tangible ways if someone's really struggling and they've been in your shoes and they're also working with someone's opinion, that was really hurtful and difficult? How can someone start to work with this hyper responsibility in a way to bring more closeness to themself in their relationship? [00:47:21][28.0]

Katie: [00:47:23] This is a tough question because there is a part of me that is like that having compassion for the other person is really hard in the very beginning because I used to get so angry. And I think that leaving space for that anger is important because like you don't have to immediately start being forgiving and I can see this with equanimity because [00:47:53][29.8]

Kiyomi: [00:47:53] forgive, right, this person. And when you're saying forgive or anger toward the person, you're talking about the person with the opinion, right, not your partner. [00:47:59][5.6]

Katie: [00:48:01] Yes. The person with the opinion, because, yeah, I used to be really angry because like it would send me into obsessive thinking, and so I would deal with that by either nit picking my partner or getting really angry at that person for like setting me off. You know, it's like, allow yourself to be angry about that, but don't get caught up in that anger. Like you can be angry that they set you off, but it doesn't make it black or white. Don't make it, it's because they're this bad person who's not looking out for you. [00:48:41][39.4]

Kiyomi: [00:48:41] Right, right, right. And I'm probably going to add something which means that, you know, if their opinion comes up, I love that you said this in the beginning, which I think is such a very wisdom filled mindset. It's starting this journey and recognizing just kind of the opinions of others really has to do with their own projections in their own wounds. And I know that you were talking about like the compassion piece in the anger piece, and it's really like kind of bringing it back to that. It's recognizing that we might be angry, we might feel hurtful, we might feel sad. We might feel scared, like, what does this mean about this other person to bring compassion to that and eventually, I think with witnessing you and your healing, there's been more forgiveness and compassion to this specific person and to others because there's been that understanding of, oh, they were operating from their wounds or they were operating from their pain and they were kind of that more simplistic mindset. They're having this problem or they're having the situation that means that they're bad for each other instead of something more complex, which is usually what's going on. [00:49:42][60.6]

Katie: [00:49:44] Yeah. I don't know. I don't know if this is going to be related, but I think a part of the compassion that I have came from, the fact that I recognize that before I went through this, I was very much like that. I was like, as I said, I always had black or white thinking. And so I remember when I was younger, I would be someone who was like, Oh, a boy is causing you problems just get rid of them. Why is it so hard and so that has been its own journey of trying to forgive myself for probably causing some people in my life to be upset and not holding space for their feelings. So yeah, and then being on the other side has given me not only like space to hold my own feelings and what someone with other opinions has, but like if my friend is going through an issue now, I feel like I have a lot more empathy and like, I'm more willing to sit with them with their feelings than I was before, instead of trying to neutralize [00:50:55][70.6]

Kiyomi: [00:50:56] the situation and go into black or white thinking. Do you feel as though it's also helped strengthen your relationship as well with your partner? [00:51:02][5.5]

Katie: [00:51:02] Absolutely. Like, as I've been going through this, it's healing is not a straight line, as they like to say, it's not linear. But as I keep going through time, I notice that more and more we are more, way more connected. And even in times when I'll be stressed and we like, he's more relaxed and I'm getting I'm getting more and more relaxed. And it has just bred this really nice, safe area for me to start thinking about other aspects of my life that I have never really thought about before. And it's been this great thing that we both kind of like to experiment in things like jobs or hobbies and things, but still come back together and still really like to be able to connect and enjoy each other's company. [00:52:06][63.8]

Kiyomi: [00:52:07] That's amazing. That's incredible. I always love these stories because most people who do this work of awakening come to this place of like, you know, in the beginning, it's so tormenting and it's debilitating in a lot of cases of ROCD, and it's so difficult. It doesn't mean it's not hard throughout the journey or even kind of toward the middle part of it. But there's almost this little light that comes on within ourselves when we're like, Ah, I see what this was teaching me, or I see the blessings that are coming from this, or wow, when we choose to go into this place of recognizing that suffering can help us and can empower us. When we have that mindset, when we have that perspective, then we start to see, like you're saying, like, this journey has led you and your partner to actually be more connected, something that most people do not think ROCD does. [00:52:57][50.0]

Katie: [00:52:59] Yeah, yeah. No, I was just like, we are never going to be able to talk ever again, and we're going to it's like he's going to hate me or I'm going to hate him. And so many fears about going through this. And now it's like things that I used to obsess about, like I will laugh about now. Like, like yesterday, I literally like this. I turned to him and I was like, We have not kissed all day. This is something that would have set me off like crazy in the past, but I just laughed and then was like, Well, I want to kiss now. [00:53:38][39.2]

Kiyomi: [00:53:41] It's amazing. That's when we can kind of have this humbleness of looking back toward our past and give ourselves kind of this compassion and humor and this recognition of, Wow, I've come so far and I've come so far and recognizing where we're are now, where we can even go further and further if we choose to do so, which is so incredible and so empowering. [00:54:00][19.5]

Katie: [00:54:02] Yeah. [00:54:02][0.0]

Kiyomi: [00:54:03] Well, thank you, Katie so much for being here. Thank you for sharing your wisdom and for your insight. There's just so much that we can go into with this specific topic. And I know we talked about, you know, so much in terms of families, opinions, close friends, opinions and, you know, other people's opinions in life and stuff like that, too. So thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom, and I so appreciate you. [00:54:25][21.8]

Katie: [00:54:25] Well, thank you so much for having me. I know there's so much with this. One day I want to talk about Tumblr for like hours, [00:54:32][6.6]

Kiyomi: [00:54:32] yes, we can definitely talk about social media, and the impact on Tumblr is a big one. Quotes definitely for sure. That will be another topic for sure. Well, thank you, Katie so much. Thank you for being here. [00:54:44][11.2]

Katie: [00:54:44] Thank you. [00:54:44][0.0]