When Spirituality is Triggering: With ROCD/Anxiety (ft. Christianna)
Kiyomi: [00:00:00] Hi, everyone, and welcome to the Awaken into Love podcast. I'm so excited to introduce this wonderful, wonderful new guest that we have on today's episode, where we're going to dive into the topic of spirituality in ROCD, something that I feel a lot of people with ROCD tend to struggle with. And I am just so I always feel really honored to have guests come on to my podcast. But this specific person I've known for a while and we've we've come I feel to a place of closeness and I really feel honored to be interviewing her today. So I have Christianna today on my podcast, Christianna welcome. I'm so happy you're here. [00:00:37][37.1]
Christianna: [00:00:38] Thank you so much for having me, Kiyomi. I'm so excited and a little nervous, but we're just so okay. [00:00:42][4.2]
Kiyomi: [00:00:43] It's OK. We talked about this a little bit before the podcast, right, where there's definitely nerves that come up and it's so expected. Like sometimes people come up and they're like, I'm having a lot of anxiety, you know, like, what if I say the wrong things or if I like, how do I work? Or what if I jumble and just like the honesty and the humanness of that? So I love that you had brought that up. So. Yeah, well, I'm so happy to have you. [00:01:03][20.7]
Christianna: [00:01:04] I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for having me. [00:01:06][1.9]
Kiyomi: [00:01:07] Of course. So I would love for you to talk a little bit about, like your background for the audience. I know that you are living in the U.S. currently or you have been living in the U.S. for most of your life, right? You've been there. All your life. And I knew that when we were chatting. I think it's almost like a couple of years ago, by the way. Actually, before I start, did you ever think that you would be at this place where you were on the Awaken into Love podcast? [00:01:32][25.5]
Christianna: [00:01:34] No, no, I never. I was. I've always been such a, you know, nervous person, and this is even a big step for me to even be doing that. So I'm really proud of myself and honored to be here. [00:01:46][12.4]
Kiyomi: [00:01:48] Right, absolutely. I think that that's a big testament to your growth for sure to be able to kind of step into that. But I just want to just bring that up because I had that feeling like a lot of people come onto the podcast and they're like, Oh my God, I never thought I would be at this point, to share my journey. So I know that you'll be sharing your journey today. We'll be talking about spirituality and stuff. So I know I kind of cut us off, but let's hear a little bit about your journey with OCD. You know that you had other themes other than ROCD, but let's tell us a little bit about kind of your your background with OCD. [00:02:22][33.8]
Christianna: [00:02:24] Yes. So I would consider myself always kind of an anxious person. Ever since I was little, you know, I was always really in my head. I remember my mom going to work and I would stare out the window, like watching my mom drive away and think, My gosh, is she going to come back? Like, Is she going to be OK? And obviously, at that point, I didn't know that was OCD, but you know, it would keep repeating, and I would be super, super nervous that something would happen to her and just carry on for a lot of my life, different things. I had Harm OCD in high school, which was a really, really tough one. And yeah, so and then it changed a lot of my I have had a lot of different themes of OCD, and I think the sneakiest form was relationship OCD because you might not even think it's OCD because of all the misinformation you hear about relationships in this culture. [00:03:28][64.4]
Kiyomi: [00:03:29] Absolutely. And I hear that a lot of people are just in different forms of OCD. And I would say the same. Like, I had different themes of OCD too. And a lot of people who have ROCD. You know, sometimes dabble in different types of themes where some people have Harm OCD, other people experience Scrupulosity. Other people have experienced, you know, Sexual Orientation OCD. I think that those are the very common ones. But what's interesting is a lot of people say that the hardest one is relationship OCD, for sure, for sure. And you said just a little bit about how you feel. That's the hardest because you feel what was the exact thing that you said? Oh, because you weren't sure if it's like we're actually real or not right with relationship stuff. [00:04:14][44.7]
Christianna: [00:04:16] It's sneaky and you know, you get it, you try to get advice. And you know, I'm not downing anyone, but you get advice from sometimes from people who might not even know it's ROCD or they have their own trauma and stuff, so when you're getting advice from people, you have to be very particular because they could put their own wounding with their advice and it could just send you more down the rabbit hole and more doubts. And you know, it just causes you to be more in your head. Kind of. Yeah, I mean, I don't know if we should jump in and top it now, but you know, a lot of people in this culture, it's intuition is a big one that comes up, that's like a big advice thing. For example, if you have the friend you're talking to and they're telling you, although you know you have strong intuition, maybe you should listen to that and you're in a healthy, loving relationship with an extraordinary partner and you're hearing that you're going to be like, Oh my gosh, you know, you're going to go down the rabbit hole because you might think that they're accurate because it's just such a it's such a tough, tough thing about relationship OCD. [00:05:27][71.3]
Kiyomi: [00:05:29] Absolutely. And I love that you brought that up because I'm definitely going to tie that into today's topic. So today, we will be talking about spirituality with relationship OCD. Christianna herself has gone through, I feel and I've been loving to, it's been wonderful to just kind of witness you and your journey because I remember meeting you. Oh my God, I was just like, maybe a year ago, two years ago. Yes, years ago. And I remember seeing your journey back then in the conversations we'd have about spirituality and just kind of seeing you now. And I know that you've been in AIR. And actually, in this month's topic, we are doing the topic of spirituality, but just seeing your growth and then also just kind of speaking about the importance of talking about this subject. So we will be talking about spirituality, we will be talking about intuition. I love that you brought that up and just kind of your own journey with spirituality. And let's kind of just dive into that. Let's dive into how you feel your journey with spirituality was before you had ROCD if there were some differences from back then and now. But I would kind of love to hear about that. Like what was Christianna like before ROCD with her journey with spirituality? Let's go into that for a second. [00:06:39][70.3]
Christianna: [00:06:40] Yeah. Yes. So it's funny because when I was single, I had such a different view on spirituality, I think I kind of felt I didn't want to. I'm not doubting anyone. But with the new age spirituality, you know, I was very into, you know, crystals and psychic readings that, um, yeah, and just all that kind of stuff. And I remember I was very, very keen on going to psychic readings a lot. I remember one time I went to a psychic reading and I remember the main thing I wanted to ask: What about my love life? And I always wanted someone else to tell me about my love life, and I would always put my trust in another person to tell me what to do. And I think that it caused me some pain because I didn't have a good sense of self back then and. I don't know if that really makes sense, but yeah. [00:07:43][62.8]
Kiyomi: [00:07:44] yeah, absolutely. It makes a hundred percent sense. I love that you brought that up in regards to saying I didn't have much self trust back then. That is a big component for people who have ROCD and OCD. There's a lack of self trust. There's a lack of being able to feel confident in oneself. A lot of times attachment styles play a part in that, but there is a lack of ability to really regulate the nervous system. So what happens with people with ROCD and I'm sure you saw this within yourself is it's like, OK, out there, they have answers out there. The psychic has answers out there or, you know, the website has answers out there and we get really tangled into that. And the more and more we go into that, the more we kind of feed this narrative that I can't trust myself and someone else has that answer. And it's interesting that you noticed yourself doing that even before ROCD, when you were talking to the psychic, right? Like you said, you were constantly asking them for their advice and to see what they would say and that it's an interesting kind of looking back and dissecting that was probably like a little cue into how obsessive thinking could start anxiety. Yeah, right. And that's very interesting. Yeah, yeah. So what are some other things that you feel was like Christianna back then with spirituality kind of versus how you are now? Like, do you think your definition of spirituality has changed? [00:09:07][82.4]
Christianna: [00:09:08] Absolutely, yes. And you know, I like to say ROCD called me out of my bullshit and forced me to eat some humble pie. Like, that's like a big one for me because I feel like I feel like I'm, you know, with this in this culture, it's very black and white with spirituality, right? You know, we were very cut and dry. We want things that are just solid answers. That said, we don't have any nuance in what we can describe spirituality. As for me, a big, big one, I think I said in the AIR class last night was humility and being humble. This is like. You know, I guess for maybe for some, it might not be viewed as "spirituality", but for me, this was a big part of my past, you know, [00:09:59][51.4]
Kiyomi: [00:10:00] humility and humbleness, is that what you said [00:10:01][1.3]
Christianna: [00:10:02] Yes [00:10:02][0.0]
Kiyomi: [00:10:02] Yes, yes. [00:10:03][1.1]
Christianna: [00:10:04] And knowing I don't have all the answers and that's OK. [00:10:07][2.6]
Kiyomi: [00:10:08] Yeah. How would you feel it was back then because I know you've just done so much growth within yourself if you didn't have the answers back then. Do you think that you would still be at the state of like, Oh, I don't have the answers, and that's OK. Like, I feel like that is really a big testament to the work that you've done. [00:10:23][15.6]
Christianna: [00:10:24] Yes, absolutely. Yeah, I would not be OK. [00:10:26][1.8]
Kiyomi: [00:10:26] Yeah, yeah. Like, you're like, I know [00:10:28][1.5]
Christianna: [00:10:28] it's not like uncertainty is the scariest thing, no matter if you have ROCD or not. You know, we want answers. We want to know we'll be OK. We want to know our relationship will be OK and I don't want to trigger anyone. But like, you know, it's scary to sit in uncertain uncertainty because that's one of the most difficult things, but it can be one of the most beautiful things, too. [00:10:53][24.8]
Kiyomi: [00:10:54] Exactly. And I think that that's why a lot of people with, you know, anxiety and also depression, but also OCD are so drawn to spirituality because I think about our culture and see how this resonates with you too. Our culture really reinforces these black or white answers in terms of spirituality when it's so gray. And I know we've been talking about it in AIR, and that's been something that's been really powerful for our AIR members, which is that spirituality is super gray, just like relationships are super gray. But spirituality can get sticky for people with ROCD and OCD because we want the black or white, we want to know if it's the right relationship. We want to know if this astrology reading is going to tell us if it's the right relationship. I don't know if that resonated with you. I think you did say that you've done some spirituality with a compulsion, right? I would love to hear a little bit more about that. [00:11:44][50.6]
Christianna: [00:11:45] Yeah, I think, well, definitely. The psychic was definitely a compulsion because I would ask my friends very often like, you want to go for a psychic reading like I would always like. I feel like now that I'm looking at it, that you mentioned, it was totally a compulsion. [00:11:56][11.5]
Kiyomi: [00:11:57] Absolutely, absolutely. And was this during the time when you were with your partner? Or was this before, like, did you do that before? [00:12:03][6.2]
Christianna: [00:12:04] Before. Yeah, which is really funny, because even that, I guess, could count as a compulsion because it was just so, you know, kind of looking outside of myself and wanting to keep going to get amped, right? And also, this is a big one for me, too. I remember I don't have an Instagram anymore. I kind of took a little break, but when I did have it, I would follow a lot of "spiritual accounts" and like astrology accounts. And I remember like saying when it's time to release anything that is no longer serving you. [00:12:40][36.1]
Kiyomi: [00:12:40] I remember I was talking about that, remember? [00:12:42][1.8]
Christianna: [00:12:42] Yes. Yes. Oh my gosh. And I remember like my body just having a total reaction to that, like because I just pinned it on my partner like it could have been, you know, maybe some beliefs I've had that could have been what it meant. It could have been like some things that, you know, like, I'm doing that, don't serve me, but it all falls on my partner like, Oh, well, maybe that means they're not serving me and I have to leave them and then you make the story out of it. [00:13:11][28.4]
Kiyomi: [00:13:12] So painful. And I think that the social media accounts like, bless them, like they're so great. And I think that I really want to remind the audience here that we're not in any way saying that spirituality is bad. There will definitely be a lot of awareness as we do this podcast more and more because I would really consider myself someone who loves spirituality. I value it very highly and it's very important for me. I definitely had to use it in different ways because of ROCD as a way to empower myself, and we'll talk a little bit more about that, for sure. But those social media accounts can be so, so, so sticky and so difficult when we see that and when we're so wrapped up in ROCD, when we're so triggered already. And also like the signs aspect, I don't know if that was something that was strong for you, like you were triggered and be like, Oh, maybe that's a sign that I have to leave and I saw that. [00:13:58][46.0]
Christianna: [00:13:59] Oh my gosh. Yes, yes. And I too, I think of like a lot of the time, like I would be in a car and I would see a license plate that said like three, three, three or something. And I'd be like, Who's this? Three me? And it said, like, you have to release anything that you don't feel is good for you. [00:14:18][18.8]
Kiyomi: [00:14:23] And you're just crying in the car looking at your partner, but I don't want to let you go. [00:14:25][2.6]
Christianna: [00:14:27] Exactly like, yeah, like it's it's it's I'm so happy to be at the point where I can laugh about it. Yeah, but I just remember it's so painful and like and now I can like, you know, laugh about it. But it's so crazy when it's so debilitating, when you when you're doing that and in the moment, [00:14:46][19.0]
Kiyomi: [00:14:46] Yeah, it's so true. I remember this one time, I think that I was. It is just like the thickness of ROCD. And I was just like, oh, please, like, universe, give me a sign, please tell me that I need to break up or I need to stay with Joel. And then I saw a car pull up and it was like nine, nine nine. I was like, Oh, my nine nine before. And it was I Googled 9-9-9, and it was like, This means that it's the end of something, usually a relationship, and it's to let that go. And I was like, Well, that's it. And then I just like, that's confirmation. That's confirmation. And I think that that's the confirmation bias psychologically that we really, really get into right where what happens is with spirituality in a lot of cases, like the angel signs or, you know, social media posts or all of these signs. Actually, the more we pay attention to it scientifically and on the quantum mechanics aspect, the more we see it more. That's actually the science of it. It's so incredible. There's a part of our brain that really, when we focus on something or we think of something, our unconscious actually starts to pick it up and starts to bring us to see it more. So in a lot of ways, the more we focus on like the signs of, the more we focus on, you know, certain things like intuition, we're going to see it more because our brains are picking it up. So there's definitely a lot of science to it. But if we're caught in ROCD, we don't know that or in fact, it's very, very painful. So I know that you did say that you've been taking a break from social media and you've kind of just been. I think that in a lot of ways, that gives the ability to really trust yourself more with your own decisions. Is that what you've kind of started to see? [00:16:25][98.5]
Christianna: [00:16:26] Yeah. And yeah. So when I decided to get off Instagram and Facebook, yeah, I just really wanted to tap into my own self because when I go, I didn't even know at that point. But when I started having, like, really intense ROCD, I was following a million different therapy accounts and I'm just being quote "spiritual" because just, you know, just to give a kind of a ballpark, I would follow so many different accounts, but I'm just trying to say and I was getting innovated with different messages, and I wasn't allowing myself to just trust myself, and so separating myself from social media was actually a very great thing for me to do. [00:17:17][51.4]
Kiyomi: [00:17:18] You've been amazing at that. I mean, I think that it's really hard for people to first take that leap. And I think that when we spoke before, you were sometimes going back and forth right, like it was kind of like that. And I feel like we could go into a whole conversation about the addiction of social media, the difficulty of that. But I think for you, you have the ability to be like, OK, I'm going to go into trusting myself and I'm going to not be on social media anymore because I think that also with ROCD, there's definitely a tendency to follow like a lot of therapy accounts. A lot of spirituality accounts, and it actually can be really, really compulsive. I think for some people who may be listening right now who may be like, Oh, like, I really want to take a break, but I don't know how to. And how do I work with this? Something that I just want to remind the audience is that you can still have social media but use those posts. And I don't know Christianna, if this resonates with you, if you've done this before, but you can still use those posts as exposure work. [00:18:14][56.3]
Christianna: [00:18:14] Yes. [00:18:14][0.0]
Kiyomi: [00:18:15] Yeah. Kind of like, look at it and be like, OK, this is actually going to be my exposure work. I'm going to allow this post to help me grow. I don't know if you've ever if you've used that before, or maybe,[00:18:25][9.6]
Christianna: [00:18:26] Yes, I have. [00:18:27][1.0]
Kiyomi: [00:18:27] So what's that process been like for you? Maybe for people who are curious who are in the state who are like, "Well, I still have social media, and how can I use those posts in a way to actually help my ROCD?" [00:18:36][9.3]
Christianna: [00:18:37] Yeah. So at first, when I deleted my social media, I kind of, I guess maybe it was maybe a little avoidance at first, but then I kind of when I went back on, I was like just looking through the posts and kind of almost just taking a deep breath and getting in touch with inner child work is something big I do with Alexis, and I feel like that's very helpful and kind of just facing my fear and looking in knowing that even if there was something that triggered me, if I didn't mean anything about my relationship or it doesn't have to be true for me, and sometimes we see these posts that, you know, could be relating to something that's not even what our situation is. So we have to take posts with discernment, if that makes sense. So I just want to mention that as well. [00:19:33][55.7]
Kiyomi: [00:19:34] Absolutely so important. I love what you said and I know you've been doing the work with Alexis that you said that you tap in with your inner child. Would you be able to maybe give an example to the listeners of how they could start working with that, just working with the inner child in that way? [00:19:47][13.1]
Christianna: [00:19:48] Yeah. So you and Alexis talk a lot about it in AIR , you know, even if you don't resonate, I guess, with the term inner child, it could just be calming your nervous system. So what I like, I sometimes just do it on my own now. I just put my hand on it right now. It's just like second nature now. [00:20:05][17.5]
Kiyomi: [00:20:08] You became unconscious. I love it. [00:20:09][1.4]
Christianna: [00:20:09] Yes. Yes. And I just so I tend to do that, and that really actually helps regulate my nervous system. And I'll just say, "I understand Christianna, you're so scared right now, but you're held in your face and your love, and then you can get through this and nothing bad is going to happen. I'm here for you," and I'm even just saying them just like breathing it and taking a deep breath and. And feeling it in your body. In reading it, it's almost like you have a companion by your side, but the companions you and you're helping are self-guided. [00:20:45][35.6]
Kiyomi: [00:20:47] So beautiful. So there's like the somatic, the nervous system aspect of really working with the nervous system of anxiety. There was something that you said cognitively too, about that it's your. Was it something like, it's your choice that you can make the decision? What was that powerful thing that you said? [00:21:03][15.2]
Christianna: [00:21:03] Yeah, I think what I said was it's you can use your own discernment. I think about it. And it doesn't have that post. You know, there's a lot of posts. There could be different situations. It doesn't have to be about your situation and you can make that choice for yourself. [00:21:20][16.9]
Kiyomi: [00:21:21] Yes. Yes. What's incredible about that Christianna, I love that you brought that up, and I know we talked about this in AIR, I think it was, I don't know if you remember the specific month topic. I'm like blanking out with this, but we talked about the doubt and the anxiety because a lot of people say, Well, how do I build that self trust? How do I build that self trust? Like, do I just do these specific exercises? But in reality, it's actually through that anxiety and through the doubt that you do build that self trust. And I see that from you where you've kind of built that self trust every time the doubt or the anxiety has come in for you to be at that point where you feel more confident within your decisions and your own choice, right? And I think that itself is a big part of spirituality. If you think about it, it's kind of like the sense of empowerment within. [00:22:10][49.1]
Christianna: [00:22:11] Right and I want to mention this too, because I think this is important. I want to say no. Like, you know, people can help guide you and lovingly guide you. But no therapist, no spiritual teacher, no friend can know your healing path and knows you. And I just want to feel like I say, I say that for empowerment, because you're your own best teacher and healer. And I just say that to empower you to make your own decisions and choices. [00:22:42][30.6]
Kiyomi: [00:22:43] So true, so true. I love that Christianna and such a big part of Awaken into Love. I feel, too, that, you know, it's really about that empowerment and kind of stepping back into that empowerment. So what I heard from you back then was, and again, I want to tie it back to this was before when you were practicing spirituality or you were kind of in that space of going to psychics. There was like that lack of self trust one. But then there was always there was probably also a lack of self-empowerment, right? Like a kind of disconnection. So I'm hearing Christianna back then before ROCD spirituality was like this. But now what I'm hearing, and maybe we can go a little bit more into this. It's like your journey now with spirituality. I'm hearing now that Christianna is in a place of deeper self trust and deeper empowerment in spirituality because of ROCD. And that is so powerful to me. That's good. So how do you feel like aside from that, how do you feel that this spirituality is different now? Like thinking of Christianna, just as you and being like, OK, this is what ROCD taught me about spirituality. That's the way it was back then. How do you feel? You're different now? Like, how do you feel? You see spirituality? What's different? [00:23:57][74.0]
Christianna: [00:23:59] That's a really good question. I feel like now I'm able to know that spirituality doesn't have to be this extravagant grand thing. It should be trusting yourself. It can be learning to be more humble. It can be having humility. It can be. Softening our own edges. And for me, back then, I guess I was looking for, you know, these outside sources and looking inside and knowing that I in my own self have the answers and not everyone else does. [00:24:40][40.7]
Kiyomi: [00:24:41] So how did you start to work on because I think that what can be triggering and that was triggering for me was spirituality to is this idea of like, if you look within, you'll find an answer or like if that's why you'll find an answer. So how did you start to work with that? Because I think some people might resonate with that where they're like, Oh, if I do this work, if I do ROCD work, if I like go into Awaken into Love or I go into spirituality and I would look within, I'm going to find an answer that I don't want. So how have you been able to work with that? [00:25:09][27.3]
Christianna: [00:25:10] And so I've been able to work with that by really being grateful, I think gratitude is the most powerful antidote because, you know, I mean, I know that's kind of not really giving any big clues or anything, but I just feel like using gratitude as a staple in my relationship in just in everyday life has been huge to overcome anxiety. I don't know if that makes sense. [00:25:45][35.1]
Kiyomi: [00:25:46] Yeah, so when you've been, what I'm hearing is when you've been having like, Oh my god, what if I find an answer? You've also been using gratitude to be able to like, soften those edges or those fears? [00:25:56][10.2]
Christianna: [00:25:57] Yes and just kind of speaking to myself kindly and using self-compassion and knowing that, you know, life is scary. It can be scary and it can be tough, but I can help guide myself through it if I'm just able to be self compassionate within myself. And I forgot to mention that because I feel like that's a huge one being able to be kind to ourselves. Because sometimes when we're in ROCD, we can really beat ourselves up and shame ourselves. And it's not. I just want anyone who's listening to know it's not your fault, either. [00:26:31][33.8]
Kiyomi: [00:26:32] Yeah, absolutely. I think that's I don't know if this was how you felt, but before when I because spirituality was such a trigger for me, when I had ROCD like, I think it was like one of the highest ones. But you know what's so interesting, and I would love to talk a little bit about spiritual bypassing after this. But what was interesting was my journey with ROCD was I was like, so hard on myself. Like when I was like, I'm spiritual and I'm this and I do this type of thing, and I'm more spiritual than Joel, and I am higher and I am so and more enlightened. But what's so interesting is I was being so unspiritual because I was being so hard on myself and I was being so hard on him. And I was just kind of being just so hard and just blaming myself and kind of going into that shame. And I think that for me, ROCD, yes, it humbled me. Yeah, taught me deeper into spirituality because it allowed me to go into my humbleness and my compassion and love, which in my view, is the highest form of spirituality, which is that encompassing self-love and, you know, self-acceptance and stuff like that. But I don't know if that resonates with you just how it brought you to a place of being really hard on yourself, but now softening those edges with the compassion that we talk about. [00:27:54][82.1]
Christianna: [00:27:55] Yeah, for sure. Like, I resonated with everything you said because I was the same way, like, Oh, I'm on my end, then I'm this, I'm the spiritual one. And it's funny because now that I look at it like my boyfriend, my partner is more spiritual. I was in like, you know, when I think about it now, like, it's always been kind, compassionate, showing up every day in little ways. And sometimes we tend to take that for granted too. It could just be even without having ROCD. So yeah, I think you mentioning that kind of thing made me giggle just because that's been very true for myself as well. [00:28:32][36.8]
Kiyomi: [00:28:33] It's true. I remember having this conversation, actually with Joel when I had ROCD where I was like, I just feel like I'm more spiritual than you. And he was like, I I feel that by you judging me. I'm more spiritual than you because I'm so like, more compassionate and loving, and it's so interesting how we get into that kind of place. I think that as we talk about it now, I think we do it because it causes us a sense of separation. So we don't have to feel the risk of love and we don't have to feel the vulnerability. [00:29:03][30.4]
Christianna: [00:29:05] It's like another coping mechanism, like it's just like, yeah, it's wild. It really is when you think about it, because I used to really think my boyfriend and I's differences were like this, this bad thing. But now that I see it, I'm like being free and God, I don't have someone who's just like me because that would be awful. I'm crazy sometimes. [00:29:28][23.8]
Kiyomi: [00:29:32] I know it's like a humbling way. It's just like, you know, because I used to feel the same. And I think that this comes from a place of wanting certainty because we're predictable. And if we have a person that's really similar to us, then at least it's predictable. And we don't have to be in this uncertainty of someone being different and what that means and everything. And I think that that's that, but that part of us that does that. But yeah, I definitely came into this position too. And I had this conversation with Joel where he was like, Do you want someone exactly like you? Like, you know, and I think deep down, we don't. But it's just kind of this feeling of, well, it's predictable and I know what it is and those types of things. Yeah, yeah. [00:30:11][38.9]
Christianna: [00:30:11] And I remember in a session with Alexis. I was telling her, like how I was so rigid before, when I was single, like reading off all these things that I thought I wanted one and a partner and that is like in bold lettering, because it's really not what I want, and I was telling her and she's like, Oh, so you want someone to date someone just like you? [00:30:33][21.5]
Kiyomi: [00:30:33] Yeah. She's definitely said that to a lot of her clients, for sure. [00:30:38][4.9]
Christianna: [00:30:39] I'm like, Ooh, that stung. But she's like, [00:30:42][2.2]
Kiyomi: [00:30:42] Yeah, yeah, that's so true. [00:30:44][1.1]
Christianna: [00:30:44] Like, I was so glad she said that because I'm like, Wow, that is like, so true. [00:30:48][3.5]
Kiyomi: [00:30:48] Yeah, it's so true. It's amazing how we use spirituality unknowingly, and I want to just kind of bring compassion to this because we really do it unconsciously and unknowingly and our coping mechanisms do it. But I would say that kind of the sense of like, I am spiritual or I need this specific thing like to the tea is like a form of spiritual bypassing. So absolutely, I would love to go into that. I'm very passionate about this topic. I know you're very passionate about it. But let's talk about the topic of spiritual bypassing, especially with mental health and ROCD, because I think that, that's just so fascinating. So what do you feel spiritual bypassing means to you? Like what is your definition of spiritual bypassing? [00:31:27][38.8]
Christianna: [00:31:28] Yeah. To me, I think it's just, I guess, maybe thinking there's like a hierarchy of spirituality and also just thinking that things are going to be good all the time and wanting things to be good all the time and by and essentially just not wanting to feel difficult emotions or own your shit. Pretty much. [00:31:48][20.3]
Kiyomi: [00:31:51] Absolutely, like to not be able to take self responsibility. Being human, right? What are some ways you feel that you use spiritual bypassing with ROCD [00:31:59][8.5]
Christianna: [00:32:01] and like just within partnership or just like with ROCD? [00:32:06][5.2]
Kiyomi: [00:32:07] Yeah, and partnership, it could be like your own emotions. Have things got difficult? [00:32:11][4.4]
Christianna: [00:32:12] Okay, I gotcha. Yeah. So I want to start by saying, I think we're actually in with messages of like pause. It's called toxic positivity. Yeah. And I hate to even use the word toxic because that's another word that, you know, [00:32:26][14.3]
Kiyomi: [00:32:27] It's like cancel cancel culture. It's kind of like a word this umbrella of like cancel culture. And there's like the root that's also toxic positivity and, you know, all of this type of stuff. Yeah, absolutely [00:32:37][10.2]
Christianna: [00:32:38] right. And we see messages like on pillows like positive vibes only, like think positive, like on T-shirts. And you know, I mean, even I mean, we can get. I'm sure we'll get into social media, too, about how everything just seems grand and good and everyone has it better than you. And I think I've brought that into my partnership because I think comparison has come up a lot too. And I'm just like, Well, they do this and you know, they say this, how come we don't do this because I'm looking at social media comparing myself to other people. And I don't know if that would fall in line with spiritual bypassing, but I think maybe just, I don't know, thinking everyone else has it better than me. And just kind of in arguments I would notice too with my partner, I would just say, like, Well, you know, I think this way and sometimes I would be so rigid in my views that I wouldn't make room for. [00:33:37][58.6]
Kiyomi: [00:33:39] Like your partner's opinions and your views too, yeah. It's so amazing how it can definitely blend into different areas where spiritual bypassing exactly what you're saying, you're bypassing emotions that are honestly just human and just kind of bypassing the human experience in a way to detach in a way to kind of separate in a way to cope with spiritual bypassing is definitely a coping mechanism. But something that you said that I wanted to go into is like the feelings thing, like good vibes only. That is really just want to say, like if you have that on your pillow, wonderful. Like if that makes you feel good, that's so great. But I think it really is so black or white. And I think spiritual bypassing is very, very black or white because it's kind of this idea of it's like, Well, if this person isn't this, then I am going to push that aside and they're not worth I'm going to cancel that spiritual bypassing exactly like you said, is having emotions and then kind of being like up like, I'm not going to feel that that's that's something that's not good. Did you ever have feelings where you had to feel like you were in a need to be in a place of happiness and love? And if you weren't, then that means you were maybe less enlightened or like, less spiritual? [00:34:55][75.3]
Christianna: [00:34:56] Yes, like a lot of the times too, I remember just thinking to myself, I'll just try to think positive right now, just try to see the positives and like almost just drowning myself in positivity. And I do want to say, I think you have to allow yourself to feel difficult emotions too, because that's how they get released. If you're constantly thinking positively you're not going to be able to really dig deep into the many difficult emotions that are stored in your body. I want to mention that too. But yeah, there have definitely been times when that has happened too, like even if this was a big one, like if my partner and I had a disagreement, oh my gosh. Like, I'd be like, I'd be thinking in my head with ROCD. If this isn't the right relationship, we're thinking differently. Like we're having a disagreement or, you know, this can't be can't be it. [00:35:50][54.3]
Kiyomi: [00:35:51] Yeah, it's rampant in our culture. How much we are canceling things. Yes, to cancel things that are important for human connection and love, and we're just constantly bypassing it. There was something that you said, and I want to bring this around to the quote that you love by Carl Jung, which is "Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate." I think there was something that you said was spiritual bypassing. We push it down, we push it down, we push it down. We don't want to see it. We don't want to see it. And then what happens is that they become unconscious and then that becomes their life. So I know that you love this quote, and I would love to hear just a little bit about why you think this is important in regards to just ROCD and spirituality. [00:36:33][41.3]
Christianna: [00:36:34] Yeah. So I think I mean, such a great quote because I think a lot of the time with ROCD. We're running on subconscious thought processes, and we aren't of course, we're not aware of it. And I feel like if we don't do this work of the healing journey, we're just going to keep taking that on to every aspect of our relationship, whether or just in general in our life. Yeah. So I think I hope that makes sense. [00:37:05][30.8]
Kiyomi: [00:37:06] Yeah, absolutely. It's kind of like if we don't do this work, this is a form of spiritual bypassing, actually, like if we're constantly like positivity, positivity, positivity, good vibes only, if we don't see the unconscious, then it's going to start to dictate and become ROCD. [00:37:21][14.9]
Christianna: [00:37:23] Exactly. Yeah. And I think we have to once we start dismantling beliefs that we hold on to so tight or we learn from the culture, that's when you know, we can really start healing, really? [00:37:37][13.7]
Kiyomi: [00:37:38] Yeah, yeah. So going into that with healing, why do you think it's really hard? And just curious from your view, why do you think it's really hard for people to kind of like "own their shit"? Because I think that spiritual bypassing is definitely like a way to bypass that? Like, why do you think it's really hard for people or why do you think it's so easy for people to go into spiritual bypassing? [00:37:57][19.3]
Christianna: [00:37:58] I think it's it's hard to when you have a partner and you're in a healthy relationship and there's almost like this a mirror in front of you, it's hard to have confrontation and know that there's stuff that you have to own up to and that you're part of the solution and your part of the problem, too. [00:38:16][17.4]
Kiyomi: [00:38:16] Yeah, it's like a huge run of self responsibility. [00:38:18][1.7]
Christianna: [00:38:19] Yes, exactly. [00:38:20][0.7]
Kiyomi: [00:38:21] Is definitely like, I think spiritual bypassing is almost like I don't have problems. I mean, you know, I'm good and you're the one that is having issues and kind of. It's amazing to me. I'm just kind of constantly humbled by this in a spiritual way. It's amazing to me how much are suffering in the ROCD and just kind of like the anxiety, really, really. If we choose to see it and really honestly recognize ROCD is spiritual itself, it can really bring us into this deeper, deeper form of what we're actually seeking, which is that spirituality, right? I mean, my definition of spiritual is more of that sense of just being in that compassion, being in our humanness like this is being human in this kind of spiritual body of this energy and this kind of form. But it really calls us back into our love, into our highest form. So I would love to hear from you, Christianna, what you feel ROCD really taught you within your own journey with spirituality. And in terms of kind of going through this awakening process, like what are some things you really felt it helped you with spirituality? [00:39:31][70.3]
Christianna: [00:39:33] Yeah. So I think. The journey with ROCD has really helped me kind of be a better person and expand more and not be so rigid in views. And I know I said this before, but it really humbles me because now I'm allowed to view my partner as my ally and not my enemy. I think sometimes we can get into that thinking like, Oh, they're so different from me. Oh, this is such a bad thing. But if we can flip a coin and look at it like this is actually great for my growth and my expansion. [00:40:11][38.0]
Kiyomi: [00:40:14] Incredible, incredible. There's something you said about rigid views or it helped with the rigid views, can you talk a little bit more about that? Like what that looks like now in your partnership? And I know that we're human, so it's constantly this thing where it's like, I kind of disagree with that view and there's going to be conflict with that. But how do you feel like expanding your ability to kind of open your perspective and to kind of see different views? How do you feel like ROCD helped you with that? [00:40:40][26.6]
Christianna: [00:40:42] I think, you know, it allowed me to, okay. For example, if we got into an argument a lot of the time before doing the work, I would be like, Well, I don't agree with that, and I would kind of shut down in a way. But now, when we do get into an argument, I'm really proud of myself and I'm able to see his point of view. And maybe sometimes I don't agree, but I'm able to be like, tell him that I understand where he's coming from and maybe say, I don't agree, but I understand and have that humbleness about it. [00:41:15][32.3]
Kiyomi: [00:41:16] Yes, yes. So like, you were able to see his perspective, how do you think when you tie this into spirituality to how do you think that being able to see his perspective creates more spirituality within you? Like, how do you feel like that's actually really spiritual? [00:41:30][14.2]
Christianna: [00:41:32] I think it's really spiritual because it's almost like there's this common understanding that and allowing myself to open to different opinions, and it's trusting myself that I am safe in my relationship and that in itself is just spiritual, that I'm trusting myself, that everything's safe and OK and that I don't need to understand people or be understood to be OK.[00:42:02][30.0]
Kiyomi: [00:42:04] Amazing, amazing. I'm also hearing, too, that your ability to see his views has probably opened yourself up to you being OK with different views that you may have, or also maybe being OK with the world and other people and how they may be thinking too, like it brings more sense of connection to like a greater whole. [00:42:21][17.2]
[00:42:26] Amazing. And gives me goosebumps just thinking about it. It really, really does, because I think that partnership itself, if we choose to go into the state of growth and awakening really does lead us into what we're seeking with spirituality. I think that before it's more like egoic spirituality. Now what I'm hearing is that it's more like the true form of spirituality. There's also something that I wanted to ask you too, I think you said something about, now you and your partner are like, are more like teammates versus like the separation. So how do you think about being teammates makes you more "spiritual"? [00:43:05][38.5]
Christianna: [00:43:07] Yeah, so I feel like now I'm able to have my practices and let him have, you know, have his own separate almost, I guess, identity, you know, I remember I just would be so rigid about him not being "spiritual", but now I'm able to see that it's actually a positive attribute that we are so different because now that I see it, we're in an interdependent relationship and we're able to come together at the end of the day and know that we do have these differences and allow it to be a building block in our relationship and a stepping stone to deeper understanding of each other and in love, really. [00:43:52][45.2]
Kiyomi: [00:43:53] I think that what you're saying and what you've learned is honestly the core of what spirituality is. I really do. And I think that the view of spirituality needing to be this black or white way or this person's spiritual or not, or I'm more spiritual or, you know, like they need to be doing this in order to be spiritual, is that egoic separation? And it's not in my eyes. True spirituality, it's just more like a hobby and like a way to cope. [00:44:19][25.8]
Christianna: [00:44:20] Exactly right. Yeah, yeah. And it doesn't allow us to have our own kind of separation identity like, that's okay if someone else doesn't have a spiritual practice like you, and some people don't even resonate with the term spirituality. You know, it's become such a thing in this culture that we need, you know, the solid definition of everything. [00:44:42][22.5]
Kiyomi: [00:44:43] It's so true. Like, you're spiritual, you're not. You are liberal or you're not, or you are anti-vax or not. It's just so, so black or white. And yes, it's painful. It can be really painful. And really just seeing you Christianna, coming into your form of spirituality won by your humbleness. And then also and I just want to say, like work in progress or like life in progress or we're always kind of, yes, I always just say, we're like this animal in this spirit body. So we're going to be conflicted with our ego all the time and then kind of working into it. [00:45:20][37.0]
Christianna: [00:45:23] I'm still not this enlightened. And like some days I project and some days I'm like, like, I, I can't stand your right now. Exactly. But it's like the ebb and flow of being human and just in actually for it. And we can come back more to our humbleness, that fun if we are feeling like that. [00:45:46][23.8]
Kiyomi: [00:45:47] Exactly, exactly. It is just as human experience and I think the more and more I'm living this life, the more I'm realizing that really spirituality is just being human. [00:45:55][8.4]
Christianna: [00:45:56] Exactly. And one of the things my sister says to me because she's been a big help, and in this journey with which I mentioned that to you a lot, there's this movie about time. I don't know if you've seen it with Rachel McAdams. [00:46:11][14.4]
Kiyomi: [00:46:13] Oh is it like this? Does she, like, lose her memory or something? [00:46:16][2.3]
Christianna: [00:46:17] It's her husband. He time travels. Yeah, it's a really, really good movie. But there's a quote from there. It says "My extraordinary ordinary life." And she says it all the time and it's, you know, I think, that it's beautiful. And she and she says there, too. It's like having a "simple life" is OK. Like, it's okay if every day you're just coming home and sitting on the couch with your partner and watching TV or holding each other's hands or just doing laundry and folding, folding it for each other or just quiet and then kissing each other, goodnight or leaving water on the nightstand. Like let's find spirituality in the simple, extraordinary, extraordinary moments like those are simple, extraordinary moments like I. I mean, it brings me to like tears when I think about how my partner just pulls down the sheets for me at nighttime and leaves the water in the nightstand for me and makes me feel taken care of. Or if I'm in an argument and I'm in one of those moods or I'm like, I don't want to talk right now, it's like, Oh, I love you, and you know like a little baby. [00:47:26][69.3]
Kiyomi: [00:47:26] Yeah, definitely. Definitely that passive. I'm more of the passive one, for sure. [00:47:31][4.5]
Christianna: [00:47:31] Yeah, exactly. And then he says, I understand you're upset right now, but let me know when you want to talk and I still love you. Let's find out that we don't have to have these. We don't have to eat, pray, love. We don't have to travel to find spirituality. We don't have to leave our partnership to find spirituality. Let's find spirituality in our partnership and here in the next hour, in the present, [00:47:54][22.1]
Kiyomi: [00:47:54] it's so beautiful, so beautiful, oh my gosh that brought me to tears. Just taking a moment just thinking about that. And I think that that's just the grandest, you know? I think that with ROCD, there's a tendency to like, there's so many layers to it, but to like, look more and more and more and more grand, has to be amazing. And I think that what we've been talking about, too, is spirituality really and can be just this practice of like this presents together this appreciation or just these little moments that add to this octave of love with it right? It's so pure and so beautiful. [00:48:29][35.0]
Christianna: [00:48:30] And yeah, I think that's been one of the most important things for me because I've had this. I don't have this, these butterflies and these elated feelings, but I have this warmness in my body and in my heart for my partner. And it feels wonderful because I don't I don't need this grand thing to be happy. [00:48:50][20.3]
Kiyomi: [00:48:52] And what a journey again, of your testament of your growth to be at that place. I'm thinking like Christianna back then probably would have, you know, would not be saying this or be at that place and how beautiful that this relationship has really continued to show you back into your own spirituality and your own heart. That's so beautiful. [00:49:11][18.6]
Christianna: [00:49:11] Thank you so much Kiyomi. [00:49:12][1.6]
Kiyomi: [00:49:13] Oh, thank you. So beautiful. I would love Christianna if you had anything to say to someone right now who is struggling with the topic of spirituality in ROCD. Maybe they're really triggered like you used to be, or, you know, you can still be triggered for sure. What is one thing that you feel you would like to say for someone who is like, I'm just so triggered by seeing all these posts and I just, I don't know, maybe maybe someone something hires just telling me to leave and I need to leave right now. Like, what's one thing you would say to them to give them support? [00:49:47][33.9]
Christianna: [00:49:48] Yeah, I think one thing I would say is first, like, you put your hands on your heart and take a deep breath because I think maybe soothing yourself in your nervous system is the first thing to do and just know that you're safe. The past year is where you need to be right now and to lean into that self-trust, trust that if you are with a safe, healthy, loving relationship, you're OK and it's OK to trust yourself. And that is a form of spirituality. And that's I think to me, that's the biggest form of spirituality is just leaning into that self trust that you're OK and that where you are right now is where you need to be. [00:50:35][47.1]
Kiyomi: [00:50:36] Beautiful, beautiful. Wow Christiana, thank you so much. Thank you so much for being on today's podcast, this was so beautiful. I feel like again, we could talk so much about, you know, a lot of topics that we talked about today with social media. Maybe in the future we’ll do something with that. [00:50:52][16.4]
Christianna: [00:50:54] Yeah, for sure. [00:50:54][0.1]
Kiyomi: [00:50:54] Yeah, but I thank you so much for being here. Thank you. Christianna, thank you so much. [00:50:57][2.9]
Christianna: [00:50:58] Thank you Kiyomi, you're the best. [00:50:58][0.0]