Is this "normal" with Sex & Intimacy? (ROCD) ft. Lauren

Also available on Apple iTunes-Awaken into Love Podcast

Hi, everyone, I'm so excited to be here to talk to you about such an important subject, I feel that it's really appropriate to be talking about this subject, especially because in the AIR program, we actually started diving into the whole topic of sex and intimacy. And something that Alexis and I really realized was how important this topic really is and how much shame and embarrassment and guilt is really behind the topic of sex and intimacy, especially with people who experience ROCD. 

So I am so thrilled to have Lauren on the Podcast today. She's going to be talking to you all about sex and intimacy. And also we will be diving just a little bit into sexual trauma and how that can really create ROCD as well. So this is going to be a really, really important topic. Sex is something that I personally haven't really or started kind of diving into the topic of it not too long ago. And what's really interesting with my personal journey is ROCD was really affected because of sex. And just having clients and different members experiencing such similar thoughts and feelings really made me realize how important this topic is. I'm really excited to be here. So there's a couple of things that will be addressing in the podcast today, something that may be really relevant for you as you're listening to this. There can be a lot of avoidance that can happen during sex, which we'll be talking about. Checking can really happen during sex. If you have ROCD, Shame and Guilt, am I doing this right, am I doing this wrong? How do I know with sex and intimacy, insecurity, self-criticism about our bodies and sex, using sex as a compulsion, as I talked a little bit about earlier. So you'll hear Lauren and I are really speaking about checking about feelings, checking to see how turned on you might be avoiding sex and intimacy, masturbation, self pleasure. If these are things that you struggle with, you are so not alone. So we're really here to normalize a lot of feelings that you may be feeling during sex. And what's really important that we'll also talk about is that these feelings and these thoughts are actually really just common for anyone in the world, even if you have ROCD or not. We'll be talking about just overall confusion, uncomfortable feelings and feeling really disconnected in your body when having sex or even just any form of intimacy. And then we'll also be speaking about some emotional pain that can come up during sex and intimacy, something that I do want to say is that sex is really broad so it can mean different things for different people. 

So we'll be speaking really through the lens of hetero normative situations. So just to keep in mind for yourself, whatever you're experiencing is okay, this is Lauren's story. It doesn't have to look like yours. It might look very similar. It might look completely different. And whatever your story is, is so valid. And so, so, so okay.

I also want to add that sex is not only penetration and it might not be for you at all. And it could be very, very different for every single individual. Sex is so broad and it's so diverse. You might have different fantasies. You might have different ideas, different attractions. Again, whatever you have experienced and are experiencing is so, so, so okay. The really cool thing is that as we decided to talk about sex and intimacy in the topic of AIR, we really want to teach you sex and intimacy through a very, as Alexis and I like to say, like a revolutionary lens. So we really teach you how to have the power within yourself and have empowerment within yourself to create first intimacy within yourself and how that ripples into your partnership, which is very, very powerful. 

Kiyomi: So Lauren and I, again, will be speaking all about this today. Lauren is here with her own personal experiences. She's also done a lot of research on sex and intimacy. She's also in the AIR program and has been an incredible member here. And Lauren, I'm so excited to have you on. Are you ready to dive in and talk all about sex and intimacy with ROCD? 

Lauren: I'm always ready to humanize sexuality. 

Kiyomi: And so excited! So why don't I have you just introduce yourself for the listeners right now? They're probably curious about your story, your background and your interest and why you wanted to be here on the podcast today. 

Lauren: Hi, everyone, so my name is Lauren, and I've taken the ROCD course with Awaken into Love, I'm also currently enrolled in the Awaken into Relationships program where we're actually currently talking about sex and intimacy for the month of February. And it's so, so exciting. So my story with ROCD is it comes in different forms and variations for everyone. But for me, I've had it since I was 13 and it's very much related to the trauma that I experienced in particular for me, which may not be the same for others. It has to do with sexual related trauma that I experienced when I was a young girl. And so for me, it wasn't actually until I was 26 years old that I found out I had ROCD and it was extremely life changing. And before that I was exploring my trauma. But really it was when I found out that I had ROCD, it really helped me piece everything together. It was like, okay, like this one big puzzle. So again, it's just been this constant unraveling, but it's providing me freedom. So for me, it is really important to kind of break away what is normal or what things should be like. And if it doesn't look like I should leave my partner. So having this yet finding out about ROCD and being able to really demystify the shoulds has been really helpful for me. And the same thing is applied for sex. And so I had a little introduction. I teach yoga and meditation on the side. 

Kiyomi: Yay. Lauren, thank you so much for being here. I love what you said in the beginning too. I want to be here and I want to talk about demystifying the shoulds and the different beliefs. I can come up. Maybe we can just dive into that in the beginning of the podcast and go into the really big importance of that. So when you say the shoulds and maybe the expectations around sex, what do you mean about that? And what are some shoulds that really come up for a lot of people that can be really, I want to say, kind of damaging. Right. Some shoulds that we really pick up since we were little that create these beliefs, that then create how we see the world and then really heighten or even create ROCD. So what are some shoulds that you have personally experienced with your journey with ROCD, with sex and intimacy that you feel are so important to demystify and unravel, to create more freedom. 

Lauren: So I think a big should is around desire, like I should want my partner all the time. And if I don't have this morning feeling something is wrong and I should leave. So that's one. And I think that's how it is portrayed and like the media. Right. Like you're seeing the beginning of the relationship and sparks are flying and it's all this passionate sex. And then when, as we know, like relationships ebb and flow and there's so many different experiences. But when we take on those shoulds as our own, we're not creating space for all things that should be, which is a very experience of human emotions. It's not always going to be blissful.

Kiyomi: So just for the people who are listening right now who may not know, because I know we did a lot of this work in the past. Of course, in the AIR program, shoulds are cognitive distortions. So whenever we have a should, like I should feel X, Y and Z, and you're not feeling that way, or you should feel more turned on or you shouldn't be attracted. And a lot of ways we're keeping ourselves in the bubble of suffering and we've really picked up on cognitive distortions for a lot of people when we are young to create more certainty, to create more safety. But as we do this work with ROCD and I'm sure you know, Lauren, we start to really unravel. Oh, there's a lot of shoulds here that are really holding me back and are also creating a lot of suffering. So you've really recognized that there have been a lot of shoulds within your journey. And what I've noticed with what you're saying is it has a lot to do with feeling. Would you say that that's true? Like I should be feeling as..

Lauren: Absolutely! Checking that and checking that feeling right. Like constantly being like, OK, I need to have this feeling if not and then, like, just wait. Always checking to see if it's there to sort of and then when it is there like sometimes or it might not be for other people you're like, OK, that's a certain key that I am doing the right thing, I am in the right relationship. But then it's not like sets of compulsions and OCD cycles. And so yeah, it can very much create that second area of suffering when it's just like this is just a normal human feeling. We're allowed to experience no desire and it depends on the context. Right. Like, you know, our brain goes into that cognitive distortion, but it's not talking about the context, like, OK, maybe you have a job if you have kids, maybe things are changing. Right. That's going to change how things are with you sexually. And there's nothing wrong with that. And if no one's ever told you that nothing is wrong with how you're feeling or experiencing your sexuality 

Kiyomi: And how relieving for a lot of people to hear that, I think for many people, because the topic of sex and intimacy brings up so much shame, it's hard to reach out. Right. Like, I know you and I spoke a little bit earlier about how working with ROCD is basically working with sex, like you're doing the same work. And I think about it in this way. It's so hard for people to reach out and speak to someone about ROCD to be like, hey, I have these doubts about my relationship, but it's even harder and there are a lot of ways to say, like, hey, I'm really feeling this or I'm not feeling connected or sometimes. And I think this is a really hard one. And we'll talk a little bit about this, because I know you and I are passionate about it. With the cancel culture around, like toxicity and like red flags around like sex, like if I don't feel connected am I forcing myself. And is that a red flag issue? Right. Like, that's a really, really big one. But I think that there's just so much shame, especially with sex and intimacy, that can be really hard to reach out and say, hey, you know, this is OK. It is OK to feel so disconnected. There were a couple of people that did ask questions on the Instagram community. And if you're not following in, you're listening right now, it's @withawakenintolove. But a lot of people did ask questions and maybe Lauren, I can kind of ask you how you feel about these, but some people were asking questions like, is it OK to fantasize about other people? Is it OK to have disgust when we're having sex like this is kind of like, you know, big, big, big topics. How do I start working with sex when I'm over thinking, what do I do when my partner and I have complete different libidos? Our sex drives are different. Other things like why do I feel bored? Why does it sometimes feel scary? Are there any experiences that you've personally had that you feel, YANA, toward this like you're not alone toward this, that you can say, well, I've been there too? 

Lauren: Well, for all of those and all of those and above and probably other questions that you're even having right now, YANA, completely. So, starting with the first question, because that was a lot there. I believe the first question was talking about 

Kiyomi: I think the first question was talking about disgust or no, I'm sorry. Was about fantasizing. 

Lauren: Yes. So fantasizing. So is this. Well, maybe I'm assuming here, but regardless of what your fantasy is, it's totally normal. And, you know, it's you're allowed to have it. But if it's regarding an ex, which I might be leaning into, that you had that experience that was part of your life. So it might come up. Right. And so it's totally natural for those things to come up. And it doesn't mean that you have to leave the relationship. And again, I don't want to go into reassurance or anything like you, but this is yeah, these are things that we've experienced. It's just like when we're thinking about something that happened to us when we were a kid that we really enjoyed. It's going to come out right sometimes. And you're like, oh, that's nice. But it doesn't, it doesn't mean that it doesn't really have much to do with your relationship per say. I would say it's just something that, you know, we've been ashamed to be like, even for me I was like, oh, like when I found out, oh, I can actually be attracted to other people. Like, there's nothing wrong with that. That was a huge relief because actually and coming from a religious background, I didn't think that that was OK. Like. Even from like the Ten Commandments, I'm like, oh, like that, that thou shall not covet thy neighbor's wife, I was like, I can't have these thoughts. And even just when we start to normalize what sexuality is and create space from that, the rules that were put on us, that we can create space for our humanity and that to be there 

Kiyomi: To talk about the stigma and the shame that a lot of us grew up to really fall into because of things exactly like you said, like religious programing or even just religious trauma that can come up sexual trauma and those type of experience that can really create different feelings of shame and guilt and also disconnection within our body. And how much that itself I mean, thinking about it, like whenever we're working with people, whenever someone has that experience or grows up with that experience, whether it's that trauma or that religious trauma or even just that shame or that disconnection when they're younger and you're putting different shoulds from what you see in Honeywood, that is like passionate, exciting, you're never bored. And if you're angry, you have just like this amazing makeup sex and it's never not blissful. You don't feel disconnected. All of those combined create these like bags that we carry on our bodies. And what's interesting that Lauren, you and I talked a little bit about earlier is these bags kind of go on our bodies no matter if you have ROCD or not. Right. Like, I know you were saying that you've had some experiences that maybe you can talk about where you've spoken to some friends of yours who also had shame around sex. What were some things that you kind of started to recognize when you started to talk to your peers or friends around sex and the shame that they felt? 

Lauren: Well, the experiences are completely different and they depend on how you grew up. I know some of my friends won't even look at their bodies, for example, and just become curious why. And they're like, oh, well, you know, men do that. But women don't like all these sorts of norms. And like, you know, they may have not experienced trauma, but even this sort of cultural collective trauma on how we view our bodies. If we're a man versus a woman or if we have a non hetero normative body like this, can all sort of impact how we see ourselves and how that interacts with the intimacy we have with ourselves. Never mind other people. 

Kiyomi: Talk about that collective trauma that we carry and then also the ancestral trauma that we also carry as well, and how much so much of this makes complete sense as to our how ROCD can kind of, you know, fuel if we feel disconnected with our partner or we feel a certain way that doesn't feel acceptable, like we might feel disconnected or sometimes we avoid sex and we don't know why, or sometimes we're not turned on in our minds enough or we don't perform a certain way or like, you know, we don't feel connected enough. How much something that is just so part of being human starts to get spun into ROCD. Right. And maybe you can talk a little bit about some experiences of how it came up for you with ROCD, with sex and intimacy and how you start how you've experienced that within your relationships. 

Lauren: I think for me, it's definitely come up and something I recently started to like within the past 6 months ish, starting to explore a little bit more is, yeah, this expectation of performance. Right, that you must have an orgasm or you must have pleasure even. Right. Because for me, that put a lot of pressure on me when I got intrusive thoughts. And it was really hard for me to find safety in my body to actually realize that pleasure. And so by creating space between this expectation of orgasm or pleasure and actually just tuning into what is here, I was able to ground myself a little bit more. And again, maybe it doesn't mean that I was easy, you know, like the thoughts are coming in. But just being able to start to create space and being like, OK, like just get rid of that word. Like I was getting rid of that performance goal or like orgasm is so liberating. And honestly, I found that and again it's different for everyone, but for me, I've actually found that it will actually open the gateway to pleasure and open a gateway to be more vulnerable when you do that. And even just discussing that with your partner, because they're like, oh, like depending on your partner, they might be like, oh, I didn't think about that, you know? And it sort of creates it deepens their intimacy as a person, too. And then together you're creating that container. So for me, I would say like, yeah, it was definitely really hard for like I think most of my relationships, I was like, I need to like I would actually compulsively like get them to like I'd be like I need to get them to, you know, orgasm. If not, then the relationship is bad. Right. And so now it’s actually giving me freedom to create space for that because now I'm like, oh my gosh, like this should it was like a heavy coat and now it's lifted. And actually, like, there's just so much to explore with your sexuality when you get to get rid of the performance goal. 

Kiyomi: Every time I talk about this and as I'm talking about with you, I'm like ROCD and Sex are just so connected. If everyone just for a moment, who is listening or watching right now can think about it in terms of like how ROCD become so fixated on I need to feel in love with my partner or I need to feel connected with my partner if I feel disconnected, that's not OK. It's similar to when what we're taking into the bedroom with am I having orgasm? Am I not am I turned on enough? Am I not? And if I'm not turned on, then what does that mean about my relationship, am I incompatible? And if we can bring in the lens of the work of ROCD into sex and intimacy, then we'll recognize that it's just the same thing, but just a different title. Right. And again, I think that the reason as to why it's not just brought up is because of all the shame and expectation around it. I love also what you said about when we start to drop the expectations of needing to feel a certain way or being like a goal or end result, that we actually start to drop in more to pleasure and intimacy. And also that connection and how that is also very similar to ROCD, where, you know, when we just drop away or move in to like the exposure of the discomfort of, oh, I don't feel connected or I'm going to let go of expectation. We recognize that there's actually that level of connection, that level of intimacy there, which I so, so, so love that you brought up. Something that I also wanted to ask you and also just, you know, just a trigger warning for some people as we do talk just briefly about trauma and especially sexual trauma. How do you feel Lauren within your own experience that trauma has influenced your ROCD in terms of, you know, the obsessive thoughts that have come up and also the compulsions, especially around sex? 

Lauren: For me, actually, I'll start with myself, so I've it's been really hard to even just be with myself and like I had the same thing at my friend's house where I couldn't even look at myself because, you know, I was actually when I was younger not to go into many details, but actually my family got involved in the church when I started to explore my sexuality. And so when I found out that I started to explore my sexuality, like the church intervened. And so then that made me feel like it was bad, like they were yucking my yum, as Emily Nagoski says in her book, Come as you are. Right. So that influenced how I viewed that right. And it's like I'm not worthy to do this. Like, this is like a disgust for myself. And it's kind of impacted me because even just with partners, I haven't even been able to look them in the eyes because I was so scared to even just see their expression, to see them express themselves. I'm like, this is wrong. This whole thing is wrong. Right? Then leaning into that. And I am going to say like I like a disclaimer and for there not a disclaimer, but just if you are experiencing trauma right now, like this is a very slow process. And keep in mind, I've been working on this for years, like my whole life. So, again, it's a very slow, gentle process. And it's hard for you to, like ,look them in the eye. If it's hard for you, even just to be there, like, no, you're not alone and just move as slow as you can. There is no rush. This is not a race. And as we say in the AIR, of course, just like titrating like moving in and moving out, it took me like two years to be able actually two years, like with my recent years to like, look at like a partner in the eyes. And before that I never did. For example, it was really terrifying, absolute terror. 

Kiyomi: And then it makes sense just for everyone listening to. Thank you Lauren for sharing your story that's so important. And I'm sure that it made a lot of people who have experienced something very similar to you feel very validated and seen. It makes so much sense going into how, you know, when we experience that trauma doesn't also it can be any type of trauma. Right. But that relational trauma, too, as to how it can just create that that that brain to go into that fight or flight that freeze when intimacy and connection and even that partnership is involved and how that ROCD is going to inevitably come up and be that coping mechanism to make sure that you're in that survival. So I do believe that when we're doing this work, especially with sex and intimacy and there is that sexual trauma connected to it, how important it is to address that and look into that again, as you're seeing titrating. Right. Like that's a big part of our work with Awaken into Love is really that gentleness. And going into that, you know, very gently, very gently as we kind of work into that. So thank you for sharing that. So, so, so important. OK. All right. So speaking about really the societal influences, how do you feel, especially in the current stage of our life right now? And I don't know if you know this, Lauren, but ROCD has spiked exponentially within the last five or 10 years because of social media, heightened intensely due to comparison and due to, you know, the things that we see. How do you feel that social media and what we see in just, you know, TV and just like Hollywood really reinforces the idea that something's wrong with us, especially if we do experience trauma. 

Lauren: So particularly if you experience trauma and if you're listening and you experience trauma and a lot of people with ROCD too, but if you don't, that's totally OK to you. But I think one of them is like "Wholeness Giveaway Syndrome" right? Because you're like that outside can make you happy. And when you're when you've gone through trauma, you're just like, I want all I want is like I've been hurt so much, like all I want this sort of blissful life. And that's what's being shown on Instagram and TV. And it's really reinforcing this Wholeness Give-away Syndrome that we talk about in the course. So another thing that that does is that it projects this factionism right, like it's all staged. Like I will flat out tell you that I'm with friends and I see them staged the photo. I'm part of that, actually, like not like I've been part of that, you know. And so you when you're in that, you're like, OK, everything's sort of staged and you're not actually seeing like all the other contexts, like if someone is going through chronic pain or if someone in their family is sick or, you know, someone's just passed away, you're not seeing any of the relationship dynamics that aren't the blissful ones. Maybe you're not seeing the conflict, that you're just seeing this projection. And so your mind goes to, oh, I don't have that. And, you know, something's wrong with my relationship because you're seeing that as the absolute. But you don't, you don't have the context. So it's the same thing when you apply it to sex, right. It's like we weren't taught with a lot of the context that sex could be anything but this perfectionism. But when you bring space between like that and what's actually here, it's so broad and there's so much freedom in that. 

Kiyomi: We are literally seeing the highlight reels because it sells like we live in that culture, something that really came up for me while you're talking was porn and how most of us grow up, especially I mean, I remember in the AIR class, I think it was last week's class. I think Alexis posted the question. She was like, how many of you grew up having a very, very, really good, intimate conversation with your parents about sex? And like no one raised their hand, maybe one person raised their hand or like having that conversation where you felt really open to discuss sex or intimacy with your with your parents. So a lot of us really grew up in a way where we were starting to become curious as children. There's that curiosity, there's that creativity, that playfulness that we have. And then what happens is we're curious and we're like, oh, they're talking about sex. You know, I'm kind of curious. And then we start to look at porn for a lot of us. And when we look at porn, we're like, OK, this woman/man has this body, you know, this person has this body. This is how they're performing. This is how it needs to be perfect. They're orgasming in the most, you know, the right way that's timed. And we've been seeing this highlight reel since we were. You're smiling. I don't know if that resonates with you, but, you know, we're seeing this highlight reel literally, probably since I mean, I'm thinking back like when we were a child, we're seeing like these Disney movies as perfection and like kind of this, you know, you fall in love and you have these feelings that, you know, they don't really talk about sex, they think, but then goes into like these things that we see in media. And then porn is the first time we're really, really seeing that and then self pleasure and seeing that in porn to or, you know, different types of acts and oh, my God, how much that creates this distortion of how we need to be. That's so, you know, maybe that's your experience. Maybe there's that, you know, people are really doing really well and, you know, kind of looking a certain way every time they have sex. Maybe that's their experience. That's OK, too. But for most of us, it's not most of us, it doesn't look like that or it doesn't feel like that. And that's kind of where that distortion takes place. Very much so with porn. But I think porn is a really, really big one. 

Lauren: Absolutely, and even just like talking to partners about it, they're like, that's all I ever know, right? They don't. That's how they're their reference point. Right. And even to me, like, I'll be honest, like I've definitely made noises because of porn, like, you're supposed to do. 

Kiyomi: Exactly like I'm so glad that you brought that up, because then our partner, I definitely had this conversation with my husband. Like many of you know, my husband, we've been together since he was 15, I was 17. I was definitely his first for sex and everything. But then I remember him having the conversation of him being like, you know, a lot of what I thought our sex was supposed to be. I'm projecting because of what I saw in porn and then how much the expectations and those should come in. I mean, I think of so many, you know, in so many ways, like if I don't perform a certain way or if I don't act a certain way and how much that should create than that ROCD especially if we have trauma and that's really mixed into it. Wow. So much, you're right. 

Lauren: There's so much here and you're totally right about the like the projection, too, and I think that this was how this work with sex is so interrelated with ROCD. It's the same sort of thing. You can look at your projections and once you start to break those away, you can actually deepen the relationship with your partner like it's it's really incredible. And you help them to awaken to their sexuality. And they may not ever get the option. Right, because that's the narrative they were told too. Right? Like we're helping each other do this amazing work in human sexuality, which is like we didn't choose this into this world, but we can create a world and cherry pick what sex looks like for ourselves. And you can live differently for everyone. 

Kiyomi: So important. I love how you brought that up, because that's a big part of our work with Awaken into Love, which is that when we start to go within and go within our own healing and become more intimate with ourselves, that's when we create that's when we actually help our partner. Well, so have you seen that within your relationship with your partner, where your inner work has kind of created that rippling effect? 

Lauren: Yes, absolutely. I would say just even with the goal of the orgasm, like they have like that as well. And even just going into embodying different emotions as well. Like, I'm like I don't know what I'm going to be experiencing today. I might just, like I'm afraid I'm going to express myself, like, are you prepared for this? And like, I want to see it. All right. Like in like, you know, just getting that permission or even just asking that has been really hard for me to even just say like, hey, can I express myself, like that's taken what, 26 years. But just even seeing them to be like. Yeah. And then you see them expressing themselves even more to like. Yeah, it's definitely not easy. Lots of working with your projections, but I think you can turn those projections into true awakening for sure. 

Kiyomi: A lot of our stuff that people experience in ROCD like hyper responsibility comes out so big with sex. Right. Like I need to make sure I'm turned on and off. I need to make sure I'm, you know, I orgasm a certain way or I pleasure my partner a certain way, because if I don't, then maybe my partner is going to get upset. A big one that we hear a lot of is like I'm even scared to say I don't feel like having sex right and is that okay? And then kind of like YANA, I've experienced it, too, like this, like back and back and forth self pull, especially with ROCD of if I say yes, I'm consenting like that can definitely come up. Or if I say no, does that mean that I'm going to hurt my partner and kind of that hyper responsibility, like, you know, a lot of this can feel it can feel painful if we can see ROCD with sex in another expression of like that self healing that will go into in a moment. But if we can really see like sex as a portal to kind of even working with the OCD and healing, then it can really become this this great place of awakening, something that I really love that you said that maybe we can touch upon something that we have really spoken about in AIR for the last couple classes, which is the vulnerability that you've expressed with your partner of expressing to your partner and communicating and you saying that that causing more of that intimacy. Maybe you can share a little bit about that one. I do want to say that that can be so hard. Right. That is really hard. Doesn't mean that a partner can really mirror that in some cases. But maybe you've recognized how that vulnerability has created a little bit more of the intimacy in your relationship. 

Lauren: Absolutely, like, I think just even them having being opened, the fact that sex doesn't have to look like this, right, because there's some people that you've been with in the past, like it looks like this and like, you know, why aren't you doing this? And I like so I think just even like talking about it and being like, hey, like honestly, like, I don't think sex can be blissful for me. Like, it's not like just really playing with being honest with what's here and like even embodying shame in bed and just having that safe container, which again, not everyone, like it takes a while to build up to. But I think if you can allow yourself to be intimate with yourself first. That can be a really good sort of trial run before you bring that with someone else, though it will look different on everyone's journey. But I would say just like leaning, leaning into that and kind of demystifying. Oh, like. This should, oh, my partner shouldn't see me this way, like they should see me as someone is blissful and sexy and like, you know, empowered or whatever and not like, oh, maybe today I'm a little bit messy or like maybe I'm angry and I want to express that and all these things. Like, I think it's helped me realize that, like, I can be accepted, like I can accept me and someone else can accept me too, and that they're not going to leave me if I just show up as I am. And that's really hard because that's one of the ways I'm still working with. But it's creating space to be like that unconditional acceptance and that equanimity. 

Kiyomi: So I love that you used sex and intimacy as a portal to your healing. How do you feel that has helped your ROCD? 

Lauren: It has helped definitely with like the I think just the thoughts around it, because it really helps you to lean into the right, like I think sex is one of those things, like when you are given that permission. Same with ROCD. You can sort of. Yeah, lean into the gray. And I think that supports you in healing like layers and layers and layers. But then you're also like, yes, this is a lot of work. But then just noticing also, too, with ROCD. Same thing with your regression, you can regress and go back. It's like it's a wave. Right. And so, like, you really have to play with like just because I felt, you know, like I was able to express myself that day doesn't mean it's going to be like that all the time. Right. So just leaning into this uncertainty and playing with that like it really is a playground. But, yeah, just lots of patience and kindness with yourself because it's a process and it's going to look different every day. And just leaning into the beauty of that. 

Kiyomi: I love that you said that it's a playground. I love that. We were talking about how we can start to shift our perspective with sex and intimacy is like a form of creativity. It's almost like doing art or dancing that sometimes is going to, you know, we're going to be awkward. And I think that's one thing that we talked about the other day in class, like the awkwardness as we're kind of like stumbling into trying to figure out and, you know, playing with different things and even flowing with this. And I think something that I do want to express is that a lot of people have different modes of what turns them on. That can be really different from your partner. A lot of people can have different fantasies. That also may be different from a partner. But if we start to see sex and intimacy in that safety or start to bring, you know, especially if we have trauma, start to use it in a way to heal, then it can start to become that playground, exactly what you're talking about, where it doesn't have to look a certain way, like I think about it in like like a form of like going to this playground. And we're just kind of like experimenting and trying different things. Or you have this opportunity to be creative versus it needs to be X, Y and Z in a certain way. If my partner's libido is higher and mine's lower. That's not OK. How do we work with it? How do we create this kind of playfulness and creation? Or sometimes if I don't feel like that, how do I lean into the creation of, you know, working on my boundaries or stuff like that too, or even titrating gently into that exposure work, too? So I feel like we did start to talk a little bit about how we can use sex and intimacy with ROCD as a form to awaken. But what are some things that you feel have been really helpful for your what are some things that or some tools that you can give to the audience listening right now in terms of how you can start to work with this or how you can start to work with the ROCD that may come up when you are having sex or even just the topic of sex and intimacy. 

Lauren: Absolutely, so as we were talking about in the Awaken into Relationship course, and it is really about starting with that relationship between yourself and sex or intimacy to self. And so I would suggest moving into could be, you know, even just doing something like art, for example, and just like embodying sexuality through art, for example, if you want to do that first, like if you really want to titrate into it, because sometimes even the self pleasure can be absolutely terrifying. I've experienced that, so I know the journey. And so maybe through our dance, even dancing a little bit seductively. Right. And like maybe playing a song that's like this really you're like, oh, like this sort of I feel sexy. And then just seeing how that feels like even if it's awkward, again, it's a playground. Right. And if you think about it, like sex has always been a playground. It's just society telling us that it wasn't right. It's been taken away from us. So just coming back to that sort of playfulness and it might be awkward when you're dancing, etc.. And so depending and I'm just I'm throwing out options here because people are at different levels of where they're at with the intimacy to self. So one of the things that I was delving into within the past year or so is really that self touch. And that is extremely hard for me. So I actually start with a massage or even just like the hug. Right. And the massage. It might not even be on your sexual organs. It could be on like the knees or this like thighs, you can explore it look differently because it depending on you, you'll have different preferences, was sexual to you or not. But I think just like that sort of intimacy and just holding yourself giving. And then slowly, even if it's just one minute. Right. To go into that sort of self pleasure or even like I'm just going to say, like, look at your body parts, look in the mirror and just be like, just just look at them and that's hard. That was actually like I think I cried so much doing that and I think I still do. 

Kiyomi: That's a hard one for sure. I love that you brought that up. I've done that, too. It's definitely a hard one. So YANA with that, I just want to just chime in. 

Lauren: But if you're also not ready to do that, please just move very, very slowly. It takes a really long time to unravel trauma. It runs deep. I live and breathe this stuff, so I know. You probably experience it in different ways, but just know that you're not alone and you know pleasure is your birthright and you know, it's your playground. But take your time. And, you know, also, if you get to that point, it's really stressful when you're dealing with trauma. Please tune into something that's why I got a lot of intrusive thoughts when I first started doing it. So just tuning into the sounds around you or just grounding yourself with, you know, taste or smell like there could be other things that you do. And that's where that massage that up and you can actually really help, that can really help to ease things. But I think the other thing, too, is as intrusive thoughts come up where different feelings seeing where you can and this might be really hard, but just every like even if it's a one minute, you start to graduate each day to like, you know, five minutes and, like, kind of expanding even for a few weeks, just staying at five minutes a day, but seeing where you can hold space for that emotion to be there and still kind of do it with the emotion, which is hard. And just see where you can embody that in your body. You can make it a cathartic experience. But whatever your feeling, you deserve to feel it and experience it and express it. You deserve it. 

Kiyomi: Thank you, Lauren. There's something that you said about, you know, especially if you experienced trauma, like working with someone can be super, super helpful. Working with a therapist, working with a coach on this can be really, really helpful. You're so not alone if you experience a lot of difficulty during this. Right. Like, I think something that's really important learned that you've brought up that I want to really emphasize on is that it will most likely feel uncomfortable at times. Right. Like awkward also as well. And I think that the thing with sex is that there is a part of our psyche that's like, you know, it should always feel good. It should always feel blissful. And and the thing is that especially when working with us and there's trauma involved, it's really important to be gentle, but that it might feel uncomfortable at times, too. Right. And we create that safe space for that. But we also listen to ourselves and we are gentle with ourselves. I love that you talked about like the senses too, like that pleasure can look so different for different people, like even that massaging or even just that holding or even just that sensual touch on the neck or even just like tasting something pleasurable too or like hearing something pleasurable that can really, you know, help to activate the different senses within a body and go definitely look different for a lot of people. There's something that you said about intrusive thoughts that I want to see if you could maybe touch up on a little bit of how you've worked with intrusive thoughts during sex and also just how that's that's so very common. Right. Especially when we have ROCD. So what has been really helpful for you during sex and intimacy, when intrusive thoughts or images pop up for you? 

Lauren: Well, now I can look at my partner's eyes, so that's why I look there, but I know not everyone is comfortable doing that or that grounds them. But I would suggest something that grounds you, allows you to be in your body like that. Well, the head can be there, the thoughts can be there. But like we can experience sex through our body. There is so many other ways to experience sex, not in the head especially. We're having intrusive thoughts. Right. Like that's just in the background. So I think, yeah, just sometimes I really like to, like, hold my partner and like, dry and, like, getting a little bit closer or really just starting to work with the body a little bit more and trying to embody actually like now like this is me now, but not before, but just embody the emotion while we're having sex. Right. And just really going into the sensation. And then if that's if that's not comfortable, which it may not be, just going into whatever ground you find your center, where can you find your center with sex and go into that. And if the thoughts are still there and they just are louder, that's OK. They're loud. They're allowed to do that, especially with trauma, sex or intrusive thoughts are going to come up especially if it's related to sexual related trauma trauma in general. It's going to come up because you're healing. It's a doorway to heal.

Kiyomi: I also wanted to add that, you know, I don't know if Lauren had this experience. I've had this experience before and this is a little bit vulnerable, but I'm going to speak out anyway. I've had experiences during sex where generational trauma has popped up for me, that was not even my trauma and that was very, very interesting. So if that's happened for you, you're not alone with that. There's there's definitely science behind the generational trauma and sexual trauma that we can pick up and have within our bodies and how sex can be a great vehicle and the safe environment to heal that. So there's definitely different experiences. I think sex within itself is kind of like this whole other universe, and it can definitely kind of like bring up different things and different experiences and just you're not alone with that. I know that a lot of people have even brought up things like, oh, like I cry a lot during sex, YANA, I've been there, too, you know, just in that state of that release. And I think that there is also just a lot of work. I know with Tantra, there's a lot of work with using sex as a vehicle to heal and a lot of ways and allowing different stored up energies to kind of be released. So super, super important, especially with the intrusive thoughts too. Something that I also wanted to add to it, which is that sex can really be this this practice of mindfulness like you were talking about, like starting to feel the physical sensations. I know when I had ROCD, I started to kind of like see sex in like a practice form of like I am going to use it as a way to become mindful. So whenever you're having sex with your partner, you're intimate with your partner, you can start to feel like, oh, how does it feel to have a touching sensation on my shoulder? What is my breath like? How is my body moving? What are the sounds in the room? That's what Lauren was talking about. With the grounding techniques, you can actually start to use sex as a vehicle for mindfulness and use it as a practice in order to come deeper into the body, which can be really helpful for the intrusive thoughts as well. Doesn't mean intrusive thoughts don't go away. That's not the goal. Right. But it can really be a great way to kind of like use sex as a vehicle to go into our body and into the present moment as well. So I just want to add that in. So I think that what I would love to hear, Lauren, and just as a kind of a final note for people who are listening right now, if you had one or two things that you would like to say or if with someone who is really struggling with sex and intimacy with ROCD, what is something that you would like to say to them if someone was in front of you right now? I mean, I feel like you've given so much wisdom and so much insight already, but if there's something that's really like calling for you, they're like, okay, this is what I want to say. If someone was sitting in front of you right now who was really struggling or even just kind of like feeling like, is this okay or is this not with sex and intimacy in ROCD, what is something that you feel called to say to them? 

Lauren: I would say to them, you're allowed to reclaim your sexuality and that, you know, if it is a difficult sort of process and it's uncomfortable, that's okay, because it's supposed to be like that when, you know, culture has been pushed on you. Right. And so you're allowed to reclaim your playground of sexuality. And it's okay if it's going to be hard, but you deserve it. 

Kiyomi: I love that. Lauren, so beautiful. So, so, so beautiful. Thank you so, so, so much. Thank you for your wisdom. Thank you for coming on to today's podcast. And this is very, very helpful for a lot of people and for the listeners. I hope that this gave some more insight and some wisdom for you and some healing for you on your journey with sex and intimacy with ROCD that you are so, so, so, so not alone. This whole topic is a topic that is, you know, ever going where it's a continual exploration every day with sex and intimacy. And it's something that I feel really needs to be spoken about more because there is a lot of shame and guilt here with something that is so very normal and just so very human. So, Lauren, thank you so much for being here. Thank you. 

Lauren: Thank you.