How Childhood Abuse/Trauma Creates ROCD with Montana
Hi, everyone, welcome to the Awaken into Love podcast, this is your host, Kiyomi Lafleur, and I'm so excited to be here. We are in episode number 3, and I had the wonderful privilege to be able to talk to Montana, who is an ROCD course and community member and who has been working with Alexis within the past year. And to be able to interview her, she actually DMed me and asked if she could be interviewed for this specific podcast and to be able to help others. And I was just so, so, so grateful that she came on and spoke to me about her experience with ROCD, especially in regards to her childhood trauma, which we're going to be diving into today. So just as a trigger warning for everyone right now, we will be speaking about abuse in this podcast, specifically childhood abuse and trauma. So just keeping that in mind and having that understanding as you're going in can be helpful. Last week I was telling you that Alexis and I were going to be talking about the cancer culture, which we will be doing in the next one. I just thought that this was a really good podcast and topic to bring up.
So Montana is from Melbourne, Australia, and she has been a course member for a little bit now and had been working with Alexis all on ROCD specifically around the trauma that she went through. So enjoy this podcast, if you would like, get comfortable. Maybe you're in the car. Unfortunately, I don't have the time today because this podcast is quite long and wonderful. I don't have the time today to be able to guide you through a specific guided practice. But as you are listening to this podcast, I'm going to invite you to remember a couple things. The first is that if there's anything, anything at all that is triggering for you, that you always have the ability to stop listening. The other thing that I want to say is that whatever emotions, thoughts and feelings that arise throughout this podcast is so okay. I want to remind you that we're going to be going through a lot today and I'm going to be talking about what specifically will be going through before I dive in. But whatever you're feeling is okay. And remember that you are not alone with all of your experiences here and a lot of this might resonate with you. So I'm really excited to bring it up. So in the specific podcast, we're going to be talking about how childhood abuse and how childhood trauma can really create ROCD. If you have specific triggers toward your partner, such as what if my partner is abusive, what if my partner is toxic? What if my relationship is healthy or dysfunctional? What if I am toxic? What if my partner is narcissistic or what if my partner is an evil person? If you have any of those triggers, then this podcast will most likely resonate with you because we'll be diving into all of that today. We're going to be talking about the shame around having those specific obsessions, how Montana started to work with the triggers that came up specifically around her past and her trauma, how that really affected her relationship, how she started to become more empowered, how it's dangerous when you've experienced childhood abuse and trauma to listen to the phrase trust your gut and your intuition and how that can be actually really damaging. How Montana started to notice her own healing. Some tips that she has for you if you are experiencing very similar thoughts and feelings and if you've had very similar trauma to hers and motivation and inspiration that she is going to be giving you throughout this time. So I'm so excited to introduce her. And I do want to say that the audio for the first six minutes or so is not going to be very clear. We were kind of switching from headphones to not so bear with me for the first six minutes or so and then it'll start clearing out and the audio will get better.
Kiyomi: Alright hi, everyone. This is Awaken into Love and I am here with wonderful Montana. Montana lives in Melbourne, Australia. Right. Melbourne, Australia?
Montana: Yeah, yeah. In Australia we say Melbourne, Melbourne.
Kiyomi: Just like my English accent. I'm like Melbourne,
Montana: Melbourne, Melbourne, Australia
Kiyomi: Melbourne, Australia. And she has been a course member for a little bit and has been working with Alexis, I think for a while. But now you're kind of just seeing her here to there. Before you're a little bit more on the regular. But Montana has done amazing, amazing work, amazing awakening, amazing healing. And so I wanted to get her on to today's video or today's podcast because she has a really, really inspirational story. And I had a feeling that she would be able to help inspire so many of you out there who are really, really struggling just with your obsessive thoughts and your compulsions especially if you've experienced trauma and if you've experienced childhood abuse. So she is here to speak with us today and I'm just so, so, so grateful for her, for you being here. Thank you. Montana, again, just for being here and speaking. I know that you're going to just inspire and help so many people by just being here with your story.
Montana: You're welcome.
Kiyomi: So, so excited. So what I would love to go into, which I think a lot of people are curious about, is your story with ROCD. You know, when the ROCD thoughts start to happen when you start to notice becoming anxious. And I know that you've done a lot of work with this and sometimes it kind of takes a little while to go back and think about everything that happened. But how did you know that the ROCD started? Like, when did the obsession start and when did you kind of start getting help?
Montana: So it's a long story. Buckle up. I have noticed looking back, I've had OCD tendencies my entire childhood, specifically when I was younger. I have an obsession about being a gunman being hidden in the air conditioning vents or I have this thing. If my foot grew, then it meant my brother was going to die. Also on vacation, I remember staying up at night and counting the seconds between the waves to see if there was going to be a tsunami. And then I think as I grew older, the anxieties became a lot more streamlined. And I do think I did suffer from ROCD in a previous relationship as well. Just looking back and I noticed that it started to come up again in the relationship I'm currently in. So I've been with my boyfriend for three years and it did start out as a long distance relationship. So I wouldn't say I had a complete honeywood phase in the beginning, I know, like I notice, I definitely had some anxiety straight away, but I kind of just brushed it off and dismissed it due to the fact that it was a new relationship. Maybe I was a little bit nervous and then I would say maybe three or four months. And I felt this gigantic shift in my body to the point that the sessions were so rampant that I felt absolutely nauseated, just like 24/7. And 2018 was pretty much the worst year of my life. I couldn't function. I really struggled going to university. I was crying every day, breaking it off every other day. I went to hospital one time because I couldn't stop throwing up constantly, googling constantly and seeking reassurance from my friends. Like I must've annoyed them. And eventually, because at that point I didn't know anything about ROCD. I didn't even know much about OCD in general. I didn't know what I was dealing with. So I thought if I broke off the relationship, then all of the pain would stop and I could just go back to how I used to be. And so I did that and we broke it off for about four months and maybe there was some initial relief and the first couple of weeks. But then I noticed my anxieties just really kind of latched on to other things. And I kind of was like, oh, this was a mistake to do this. And then as soon as I even started thinking about going back into the relationship again, the ROCD kind of started up again and I was obsessing and that would be like, no, I want to go back, get back together. And then I would obsess again. And we did get back together. So this was at the beginning of 2019. And he moved to (his from Sydney and from Melbourne). He moved to Melbourne I think in September last year.
Kiyomi: Wow. So you were originally in a long distance relationship with him from the beginning. That's kind of how you started off. And then there was a moment, you said, where it kind of hit you, where the obsessive thoughts started kind of coming in. Then you started feeling really nauseated and it can be so isolating when you feel like you have absolutely no idea what's going on and you're so confused and what's something that I really want to bring up, which is the fact that you've had OCD tendencies when you were little, but when you're little, you don't really recognize what's going on. Right. It's not like you're like, oh, I have OCD right now and all these coping mechanisms. But then later on, you get to the point where you're like, oh, it makes sense. When I was little, I used to have these tendencies and kind of now when I have that as well, kind of before we had this call, we spoke a little bit about your past and how for you a lot of the triggers were around your partner being abusive and if your partner's abusive or not, and kind of the shame behind that. Right. Kind of the fear of talking to people about that, which can be really scary for a lot of people to bring up that specific obsessive thought and how other people will think and how other people feel. But how do you feel as though that really kind of tied into your ROCD of having that history and having that trauma?
Montana: I didn't have those specific obsessions right away. I think the obsessions I had more in the beginning was around attraction, feeling passionate all about like this is my partner right for me kind of thing, comparing it to past relationships and more of the general stuff that I know everyone in this course, we all kind of have those similar things. I noticed that stuff really started to come up when I was doing Inner Child work.
Kiyomi: Yes, yes. And then so what would come up for you, like when you were doing inner child work, would it just automatically go into those thoughts or would you start to kind of notice throughout time? You're like, I'm dealing with these things that happened in my past and now I'm kind of starting to have these thoughts when I see my partner.
Montana: Yeah, because I know with OCD, when you're having one specific thought, it's like the thought, the obsession that you had earlier doesn't matter anymore. So now this one feels like the most important. So when I was having obsessions around, like, what if my partner's a narcissist? What if this relationship is toxic, blah, blah, blah, all of those other obsessions, like they felt really minor compared to this one. So, yeah, I'd notice a drift between grieving for my childhood and grieving for myself and then jumping right into rage and being like, what if my partner's abusive? What if, what if I'm in a toxic relationship? And then also sometimes what if I'm abusive as well.
Kiyomi: Right. Right. Yeah, absolutely. And it's so, so, so common for people who've gone through that trauma to really project that onto their relationship. Right. And I think that it's really common for a lot of people who've had that trauma, but they don't realize it until they can do that deeper in their work, which it seems as though happen to you, where you started to do work with Alexis and you're doing therapy with her, and then you kind of go on to inner child stuff and then all of a sudden kind of these these thoughts started to arise. And you're like, oh, this makes sense. This is really connected to my childhood.
Montana: And I did. I spoke with my childhood best friend, who we've been friends with since we were ten. And she actually remembers a lot of things happening to me because she witnessed it first hand, which was very validating. And she kind of did remind me she's like, this stuff will come up when you're doing inner childhood work like it will. But yeah, it's very difficult, and especially if you do want to talk to friends who maybe don't get it. Like if your friend came up to you and said, I'm worried my partner is abusive, what's your initial reaction? You're going to be like, get out of that girl.
Kiyomi: Absolutely. And I'm so glad that you had a friend also who was able to validate that, because that itself, as you're going through that healing and that inner child work can feel so isolating. Right. Where I would assume at some point, especially working with people who've had very similar pasts as you, they've come to say. You know, I had to kind of go back and forth with myself like, was this really true? Did this really happen, like, to the extent of it and validation of your own pain and kind of working through that. And I'm just so happy to hear that your childhood friend validated that for you. Like, that must have been really helpful in a lot of ways.
Montana: It was extremely helpful. I mean, there was a very saddening part of that as well, which kind of hit me like a train, like, oh, then if she remembers it the way I do, like, it really must have happened. Right. Right. But that sadness in itself is very I found it very gratifying. I was like, yes, I knew I wasn't making it up.
Kiyomi: It's absolutely like it's a reality. And it's okay to also feel the emotions of grief and anger within all of that as well and the complex emotions that come about a 100%. And I know that earlier we were talking a little bit about how, you know, it's scary to approach people, even a therapist, about this specific trigger. Right. About these obsessive thoughts. And I know we talked about that a little bit where you were saying, you know, it's hard to just, like, go up to a friend to be like, what if I'm in an abusive relationship or what if my partner is narcissistic? And even the fear of bringing that up to a therapist can feel really, really scary. I have a feeling a lot of people know exactly how that feels, especially having gone through similar traumas as you and how that can feel really isolating. How did you work through that? How did you kind of work through that? The obsessive thinking in the triggers that came up in order for you to feel comfortable, to be able to talk to someone about it?
Montana: Well, first off, I kind of had that realization before me and my boyfriend got back together. I kind of had made that connection in my mind, like maybe my experience with my mother is making me really afraid of relationships and specifically, like, emotionally intimate relationships. And then as soon as the come up came up again, I was like, not that's shit. It's just a relationship.
Kiyomi: And it's not it's not my job. It's all the relationship I have to leave. This isn't right.
Montana: Yeah. You know how that is. And I was working with a therapist at the time who I actually think is a really good therapist. She had some really great insights, but she would bring her own wounding a lot to do with her divorce and say things like, well, if you feel like it's toxic, it probably is.
Kiyomi: So a lot of her own transference and projection onto you.
Montana: Yeah, or she'd like to talk about her own divorce or she'd make comments like me running my relationship into the ground. The very shameful, shame inducing comments. Right. And the first session I did with Alexis, like the feeling was completely different because I think she just radiates compassion. Yeah. So I think that a compassionate approach compared to a judgmental approach is so much better in terms of talking about really difficult childhood trauma. So that was very helpful.
Kiyomi: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that that's really the basis to a lot of her work, which I'm sure that you recognize as you've been in the course and working with Alexis, which is that so much of this really has to do with acceptance of emotions. Radical compassion, inner child work really has to do with like this whole thing of, oh, my God, I went through this and the anger of that and the shock of that and then the grief of that and being able to hold all of that, which is that compassion work. Right. Which, you know, a lot of people who are listening right now might be like, well, I don't know what to do. Like I have this awareness. I have this idea that I went through this trauma. I know that I went through trauma and I'm having really similar triggers as Montana. But how do I start the healing process? So what would you say to someone who is in that specific position that you used to be in where they were aware of what was going on, but they didn't know what to do next?
Montana: I wrote down a list of every incident I could remember, which was very difficult, obviously, and I would say definitely set some time aside to do it, because that's going to be a very dark thing to do. But I looked at this. I wrote everything down and I looked at it and obviously I read it and I was like, this is like, this isn't normal. Yeah. And I think acknowledging your own pain and acknowledging like this isn't normal, this isn't what I should have gone through, I didn't deserve this. I'm a songwriter as well. So I definitely wrote a few songs like that. And then I also did a lot of research towards what childhood trauma does to your brain and how wise you are a certain way. And I think. Anyone who's gone through a childhood trauma, there are always some common symptoms, not being able to sleep, being startled by loud sounds, maybe feeling a lot of pain. If someone says something in a certain tone of voice, maybe very being you know, analyzing people's nuances and people's movements, a bit too much less a feeling. Every emotion in the room, sometimes.
Kiyomi: Literally the reason as to why so many people become highly sensitive is because that was the way that they coped when they were young. It was literally neurologically created in that way, where when they were young, they had to be highly sensitive and checked to see how their mom was feeling. Or is my dad okay or am I safe? And they started to build that hypersensitivity and that started to kind of transform and become part of their adult life. And a lot of ways, like highly sensitive people, have gone through a lot of trauma.
Montana: And I think going on with that, like it's almost like you get confused between who you are and what's happened to you, whereas, like, the symptoms become your identity almost. And once I kind of armed myself with information and I realized all of those things were happening to me because of that, I started to question, well, like, who am I if those symptomatic things weren't happening to me. And so it's a very long, slow, painful process of separating their symptoms from yourself. And I felt very empty without anxiety.
Kiyomi: Yeah, definitely. Definitely. As we go through the process, I think a lot of people don't talk about that enough, but something that Alexis and I are constantly wanting to talk about is that sense of emptiness as you're doing that healing work and as you're kind of going through that. Right. Like it's kind of like we have to go into that in order to kind of start to reshape ourselves or bring about different pieces that have kind of been shattered. Right. And kind of looking yourself back into that whole mess can definitely feel empty, can kind of feel dull or neutral. Some people say, yes, well, just kind of okay.
Montana: Dull and neutral is definitely a good way to feel. Yeah and then I just noticed the more I was aware of why my brain was wired this certain way and why automatic responses would come up within me. The more awareness you bring to it, the more you have an ability to rewire your reactions. And now when I feel that automatic response, it's like the new system is more automatic than the trauma.
Kiyomi: Yes. And I think is a really big piece of awakening and all the work that you've done, which is this place where you are aware, you become like awake to the trauma, you become awake to the triggers where you're able to become empowered and step back and not have it control your life or dictate different things that you do. Or sometimes you might be like, oh, this is really hard and really feeling that. But there's a sense of empowerment and a sense of like trust in yourself and also being able to trust the world around you. Whereas before trust was probably just like not even there. Right. Like what is trust? How could I trust anyone? How could I even trust my partner and know that there was something that you brought up, which I do want to bring up, because I know a lot of people have experiences and do experiences, which is the trigger around conflict, especially with your partner. I know we spoke a little bit before and you said that whenever there was conflict, it would kind of create a lot of triggers, anxiety within you. And I would love to hear just a little bit more about how that would happen and what you would kind of notice yourself getting into and how you were able to work with that.
Montana: Yeah, conflict was and sometimes still is a huge one because, yeah, talking about trust, like the only thing I trusted was what I thought and felt in my body, and that was that was my vehicle for navigating the world. And I trusted pretty much nothing else. So obviously, when you're going through conflict, that traumatized part of your brain is firing at a hundred. And so, yeah, I thought it was very hard for me, even though there was no physical danger, no verbal danger still in my body, I believed that I was in danger. And now I know it is an emotional flashback where. It could be a mild argument or maybe even a heated argument. But all of a sudden I'd be in a corner worried that I was going to get hit or I'd start banging my head, hitting myself, pulling out my own hair. I even self harmed a couple of times during conflict, or sometimes I'd want to, like, flee the house. Like, delete, block numbers, all of that kind of thing, so very like violent reactions.
Kiyomi: And it was your way to cope through the situation that felt so uncontrollable as we kind of went through that response back toward trauma. We are really in that trauma mode where it's literally survival. That's it. And we're not knowing what to do. And it's either being alive or being dead. And we're feeling like we need to survive in that best way. So we do go into those tendencies in order to cope, in order to try to survive.
Montana: Yeah, and it was very hard for my boyfriend as well. Like before we kind of knew what was going on. Like, obviously when you're hearing someone calling you abusive or a narcissist like that, it's like before he knew what was going on, like, he'd definitely take that personally. And it was very hard for him as well. And then what improved for me was like a couple months into therapy, I started forcing myself to delve into reactions that felt unnatural.
Kiyomi: Yes.
Montana: Like this brand new shiny idea that couples have conflict. Wow, what a revelation.
Kiyomi: And like a mind blown thing and a situation where a whole new language that you just discovered that you had no idea about. And there's probably a part of you that's like, oh, are you sure? I'm kind of scared to go into this idea, but it seems really fascinating. Like you can have conflict that could bring you to connection?
Montana: Yeah, conflict is good? question mark? Because if you're a survivor of childhood abuse, you miss out on that skill because you don't learn that if you are in conflict with someone, that doesn't mean they don't love you or that doesn't mean you don't love them, or that doesn't mean that they want to. That doesn't mean they want to hurt you.
Kiyomi: It's a very survival aspect of black or white. There's no possibility of gray, of a possibility of something else. Right. It's really that black or white thinking which we can so, so, so very well go into when we're in that trauma, when we're really stepping back into feeling as though we're back again. And it makes sense with all the coping mechanisms and then also ROCD coming in to be like this over protector of like a trauma that's protecting you and then the ROCD that's protecting you and kind of going to all of those types of feelings that can feel so scary. There was something that I want to kind of go back to, which I love that you brought up, which was the only thing that you could really trust was your thoughts and your feelings. That's probably the only thing that you felt like you had control over and a lot of ways or something that you could kind of trust and go into. There's a really, really big thing within ROCD, but specifically around abuse that I want to tap into, which is the idea of trusting your intuition and trusting your gut and your instincts is super damaging for someone specifically who has been through child abuse. So I would love it if you could talk just a little bit about that, because I know that you said you had an experience right, where someone said something or you read something about trusting your gut and how that can be extremely damaging.
Montana: Yeah, it can. I mean, you open interest and you're looking through quotes and it's the only thing you see. Or like all these memes and even like when I first when I was really in that compulsive, like, reassurance seeking state, sometimes I talk to people and they'd be like, that's your gut. That's your gut talking to you got to trust your gut. You've got to, like, trust your trust yourself. And like, obviously, when you hear that, it doesn't make you feel better, but. I talked to my then therapist at the time, and she was like, when you are anxious, when you are in that fight or flight, you don't have, like, access to your so-called intuition. Your intuition never makes you scared. Yes. It never causes a physical reaction in your body or an onslaught of thoughts like, you know, when you're feeling something intuitive because you don't have you don't have to question it.
Kiyomi: Yes, absolutely. That is such a good statement. There's not those like what ifs. There's not like questioning and those ruminations coming up and the obsessive thinking and kind of that back and forth compulsion to make sure you're safe. Right. It's kind of like the idea of needing to feel safe. And I think that the whole idea of trust your gut can especially be so damaging when someone has gone through childhood abuse or abuse in general, like so damaging because our gut is literally connected to our fear center and our fear centers connected to our fight or flight system in our fight or flight system is connected to our trauma. So a lot of ways we don't know or a lot of people get really confused because they're like, I'm trusting my gut, but it really has to do with their trauma. It really has to do with what they've been through. So that can be really, really damaging. But I'm so glad you brought that up. And that was so wise and so good that you start to understand that it seems after your therapist kind of talks to you about that. So you could kind of disregard it, even though it's still triggering, I'm sure, in some ways.
Montana: Yeah, it's still triggering it. But like nowadays, when I am feeling anxious and I am actually having a very anxious week due to Australia going back into lockdown and I'm also releasing music for the first time. So when I do have that anxious thing and I want to go into compulsions or obsessions or kind of like, well, I'm anxious. So whatever in my head right now is probably not telling the team.
Kiyomi: I think that that's such a good way to put it. And that's a good way to kind of bring about awareness to yourself. Really, I'm anxious. Everything that I'm thinking is not going to be true and kind of going into that, which can be really, really helpful. And that's really a big part of your awakening, which is having that awareness. You've done so much work to this point where you're like, I see that. Here it is. I also understand how that would come again and to be able to work with that where maybe you are in it for a little bit versus before like weeks and months.
Montana: Exactly. Instead of and now I'm at a state where usually, you know, if I'm not having if things aren't coming up in my life, I used to have anxiet 100% of the day. Now, I would say I'm in that fight or flight maybe 10% of the day, which is a massive reduction and makes functioning a lot easier.
Kiyomi: Yeah, absolutely. What a big, big, big change. And so much of the work that you've done truly was just was just all of that and and probably something I would assume maybe I'm just projecting in this way, but maybe something that you don't realize that you would be able to get to when you were in really bad states of debilitating ROCD. Like, did you feel like you could be able to be at this stage? Because I know a lot of people who have like success stories or have awakened in a lot of ways have been like I never thought that I would be able to be like this. I thought I would just have to live like this forever. But did you have part of you that felt that way as well?
Montana: Yeah, I did, because, as I said, I was really trusting of my beliefs, so I was like, there is no way that I cannot believe the things that I believe and not even just about relationships. But like, as you said, so much about the beliefs you hold about yourself and your relationship to the world around you. And so as I was starting to untangle the beliefs and realizing that a lot of the things that go on in my head are complete bullshit, I was like, oh, this feels really good.
Kiyomi: Yes, absolutely. And what it really comes down to is also I know that you've said the only thing that you could really trust was your thoughts and your feelings. Right. You couldn't really trust anyone else. But as we kind of do this healing work and as you've done this healing work, you actually kind of start to like to trust yourself beyond the thoughts and just be honest.
Montana: Yes, totally.
Kiyomi: Yes. Like your wholeness and you trust your own inherent wholeness, right? Of like Montana as you're putting the pieces back together of the healing childhood as well.
Montana: That whole thing of I am enough as I am. I think it is the main takeaway.
Kiyomi: Yeah, definitely. Definitely. And I'm sure that that has in some way transformed not only your life, but also your partnership as you've done a lot of this healing work, I would assume.
Montana: Totally. Totally. Yeah, because you realize, like a lot of beliefs you hold around relationships in general, like I was just 100% bullshit. And so without of that bullshit in the way, like, relationships become very basic in that you have if you have a partner who is good to you, who is willing to communicate and listen and wants to support you and wants to listen to you, then all of the rest of it will be like, whatever.
Kiyomi: Yeah, exactly, and that's really honestly like what the inherent core is just seeking, like to be loved, to be seen and to be to be heard. That's actually the attachment style to be heard, to be seen, to be loved, to be held. You know, that can be an extra. But it really comes down to that. And then you recognize that all of these other things in so many ways, these obsessions, these compulsions, these triggers really had to do, especially since they're in. So they're coming from a place of so much pain and suffering that has to do with a lot of old wounding and a lot of our old trauma and a lot of our own pain. But we get to kind of work on that with a secure, loving partner where they can keep holding us and say you're still worthy and you're still loved despite the pain you've been through and you are not that.
Montana: and that whole thing about a secure understanding that a secure, loving partner is a threat to the reptilian
Kiyomi: 100 million percent. So I would kind of like to go into that just a little bit with how before I would assume in some ways and everyone is just so different with their trauma. But some people feel really comfortable and familiar and chaos. And when that chaos isn't there, they feel a sense of a heightened state of anxiety. For some people, it could be different. You know, everyone is super different. But how were you kind of before your healing and then kind of versus now.
Montana: She loves drama.
Kiyomi: It's exciting.
Montana: I would say beforehand I was someone who really thrived in an adrenaline state in that, as you said, I definitely found it exciting and I found something very fulfilling when there was something intense going on. She lived through the drama. She loved it. And yeah, when there was yeah, as you said, boredom or neutrality, that was extremely depressing. I think some of that comes as well from being like a theatrical and creative person as well. Maybe that adds to it. But I'm like I remember getting into a relationship like, oh, well, I'm really happy and settled and comfortable. Well, what else is there to learn? And I know that might trigger some people when they hear that because they're like, oh, well, that means the relationship's not enough or something. But I'm saying that I found happiness a huge threat because that means I felt that I couldn't work on anything. I couldn't I couldn't move or there was no pain motivating me to be productive. I guess it's a good point.
Kiyomi: Absolutely. Like there's nothing that's actually pulling you to the next thing in some ways or there's nothing that you can just focus on. You might just have to kind of just focus on what's coming on within yourself.
Montana: There it is. Yeah.
Kiyomi: It's like all that discomfort within that people are trying to run away from, which is actually kind of the gateway toward healing in a safe way as we slowly start to go into it. But in reality, when we're used to chaos, then in a lot of ways we're just trying to escape what's underneath that discomfort of sadness or different trauma that we've been through, for sure. Yeah absolutely.
Montana: A pandemic is great.
Kiyomi: I know a lot of people through the pandemic, you know, like, really, you're kind of forced to face yourself in a lot of ways. You're kind of forced to kind of come still. And a lot of people did use this opportunity to do a lot of deeper therapy and a lot of deeper work because they also had the time to be able to do it. But they were also like, oh, my God, Kiyomi so much is coming up, you know I don't know what to do about this.
Montana: I felt that as well. I felt some very old things come up. And I also feel like the world is going through shit, I feel great!
Kiyomi: I love that you said that because so many people brought that up that they brought it up secretly, you know, where some people were like, oh my God. Like some people's reaction was, oh my God, the pandemic is happening. I don't know what to do. I'm in a state of complete chaos. And some people were like, this is exciting. Like there's something to focus on that's maybe not me. I don't have to think about myself now. My anxiety is on something else and there's something to fix and, you know, all of that type of stuff. So I think that what's really fascinating and kind of the things that we've talked about today is that everyone can really deal with trauma differently. But there are a lot of similar symptoms and characteristics which you've done a lot of research on, which I know about being a child of abuse. Right. Having gone through that and how that can be really common and just such a big trigger for a lot of people that I kind of want to go back into for a second around the idea of if you have for the people who are listening right now, if you have really grown up in a childhood that had any abuse or adolescent and you experienced abuse, then it can be common to have specific triggers that Montana spoke about along the lines of what if my partner's abusive? What if my partner is toxic? What if I'm toxic? We can go back to that, too. What if my partner or my relationship is unhealthy or dysfunctional? That can be a big one. What if my partner is narcissistic and Montana and I were kind of humorously joking a little bit because I've also had that specific belief as well, that you literally become an expert in narcissism and abuse.
Montana: And yes.
Kiyomi: We can become just the best psychologists, with all the research and the obsessions, you know, the googling and stuff. And the other one, which I know you brought up before and as we talked about what if your partner is an evil person? And I know that you kind of said that there was shame and guilt around that in some ways as well.
Montana: Yeah, totally, especially in bringing it up with other people as well. It can be exceedingly because it is such a taboo topic in so many ways and not talked about or if it is talked about, it's not talked about from the perspective of someone who's gone through actual abuse and is now projecting fiction onto fact. It's usually talked about by someone actually. Dreaming of experiencing a legitimate, abusive relationship?
Kiyomi: Yeah, absolutely, it can be so scary, I think, for any type of person who has the specific beliefs or specific obsessions to talk to someone about it, to kind of reach out for help. But I think just in general with ROCD, there's so much stigma, because it's so unknown for so many people, that's hard already. And to put that on top of, like, you know, the obsessions on top of that can be super difficult. So I have a feeling that will be comforting for a lot of people to hear that it's very common for someone who has been through trauma like that. And it makes sense if you are listening right now that if you've gone through that same situation to have those obsessive thoughts, to start to become aware, which Montana talked about before. Did you research abuse and how that can impact you? Right. And you talked a little bit about that. And, yeah, I'm assuming going into therapy is really big for any type of trauma, which I know you did a lot of work with Alexis on.
Montana: Yeah, I did. And I also think it can be very helpful for your partner to go into research about that as well so that they don't take it personally. Like, yeah, as I said, my boyfriend used to take it very personally when this he was presented with someone saying, like, what if you are abusive? And now because he has a lot more understanding and research of what I've been through and what that can look like for a lot of people. He understands. We both understand that, you know, it's not actually our relationship or my perception of him. It's just a relived like. Yeah, it's a flashback, really.
Kiyomi: Yeah. And such an important part to take away and kind of just to bring this podcast back into close, which is having that awareness and being able to have that awareness is so, so, so empowering. And really the first step to any sort of this awakening journey, which is why we did a podcast and in a video specifically on this, to be able to say, hey, this is out there, you're not alone. You're not the only one going through this. And if you're triggered by the things that we or you have specific triggers that are really similar to what Montana discussed, you are not the only one. And also the belief that trauma could definitely be a big component to why these beliefs come up and that it's not it's not necessarily you. Right. But more of that you experienced.
Montana: and what you are experiencing is normal and common, even if you don't see it reflected in the world around you. I promise you it is there.
Kiyomi: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. We are so, so, so helpful. I know for so many people who have really experienced very similar traumas as you are. So, so, so, so appreciate you coming on here and giving your wisdom and giving your support for a lot of people who I know who definitely don't feel like they're, you know, alone, which they're really, really not. I kind of want to end with just a closing in terms of if you wanted to or if you could have a chance to say anything to that younger part of you when you had ROCD, what would you say just in terms of where you are now in that comparison? What would you say to that, that part of you that just experienced that ROCD and you had no idea what was going on, you felt hopeless?
Montana: I would say it always comes down to the basic lesson that we hear all the time in this course, that you are not your thoughts and feelings and your thoughts and feelings may feel real, but they're not true. And what you're feeling is okay and normal and you're probably feeling it, you're probably feeling unsafe because it is finally safe for you to feel safe. I think if that makes any sense.
Kiyomi: That makes total sense. Yes.
Montana: Even though I know it feels so and so painful, the fact that this is coming up for you is actually a really good sign that you're actually now in a place in your life to heal.
Kiyomi: Thank you, Montana. That was amazing.
Montana: You're welcome.
Kiyomi: That was so amazing. Thank you so much for being here. So, so, so appreciate you. I so appreciate you coming on and expressing your journey. I know that it has helped so many people who are tuning in and listening right now. And I thank you for being that beacon of light and support for a lot of other people. So thank you. Thank you.
Montana: Happy to be here. Thank you so much.