Are you Resisting Healing with ROCD? (What That Means)
When we write our book 📚 on Awaken into Love {which will happen 😘} we will devote a huge section on resistance and what it’s telling you…
Why?
💥because understanding resistance can save you extra time from suffering, confusion and doubt within your relationship and yourself 💥
After working with ourselves and over thousands of people on ROCD, anxiety and awakening, we’ve learned that resistance is NORMAL and very biological. In fact, we can’t grow without resistance (yes, read that again). In fact as coaches and therapists, when we work with you, we EXPECT 👐🏻 it. Not only that, we know its going to be part of the healing journey with ROCD/anxiety and will most likely show up anytime you GROW 🌱.
Hear me when I say that:
➡️ Resistance is part of growth. It will come in various forms (thoughts, feelings, behaviors) to try to keep you “protected” and “safe”, because going into the unknown feels scary for the ego.
And keep in mind, resistance can be sneaky 👀 In fact, obsessive thoughts ARE part of resistance. It’s a way to sneak back away from the uncomfortable feelings, wounds and traumas of the body to escape and cope.
Here’s the good news though: we can use resistance to awaken ☀️ We get to work with it. In fact, the more we recognize resistance and work with it in a loving way, the easier it gets. We get to even start seeing it as a good thing and celebrate when it’s there. (Some AIR members now celebrate every-time they see resistance and use it as a spring board to propel forward) ☄️
Because resistance means we’re growing, it means we aren’t stuck, it means we are awakening. Resistance shows us that we are meant to heal, to grow.. even if there’s a little push back from the psyche.. just a little bit 😘
Kiyomi LaFleur: Hi, everyone. Welcome to the Awaken into to Love podcast. Today is going to be a beautiful podcast with the wonderful Manon. I am so happy to have Manon on today's podcast. And I'm so looking forward to speaking to this really important topic that I would say all of you. Have struggled with or are currently struggling with with your own healing journey with ROCD or just stepping into the work of awakening, and that's the topic of resistance and how resistance shows up in our life, not only even having ROCD, but a society with just being human. And today, Manon and I are going to talk about the importance of resistance, how it shows up with ROCD, how it shows up with being human, the blockages, and the fears that come up when resistance comes up. The different ways you can actually incorporate resistance into your own awakening in your own freedom and actually how resistance holds a huge key to your own freedom. I think that Manon is an incredible person to be talking about resistance today, specifically because she just has so much wisdom. She also an incredible, incredible person. And honestly, I feel so honored to have her on the podcast today. So much welcome all the way from France. Welcome to the Awaken into love podcast. This is your first time. I'm so happy that you're here.
Manon Lam: Yeah, hello, everyone. Kiyomi, thank you so much for having me, and even if I'm a bit anxious, I'm so happy to be here. Really happy to be here.
Kiyomi LaFleur: I'm so happy that you're here. Would you be able to tell me where in France that you're at?
Manon Lam: Yeah, I live in close to a city in French that is called Not. It's about two hours now by train from Paris. It's on the north west of France, close to Brittanie.
Kiyomi LaFleur: So before this podcast, you talked to me about your life before you were living where you are living right now. And I know that you have an incredible business and you help a lot of people with what they're struggling with. Would you be able to talk just briefly about what you do and how you help people?
Manon Lam: Yeah, I recently launched my business to a mostly functioning, anxious women that are struggling with this high functioning anxiety can be a very sneaky and pernicious type of anxiety because it's hiding behind all the success and achievement that these people do. But in fact, they're really struggling with anxiety. And so I really want to help them figure out what's going what it's going on for them and really move from this survival living to a place of peace to be able to finally live the life they really desire or that on their own and to manifest whatever they want in life. So it's really what I'm committed to do and I'm so happy to be able to do that.
Kiyomi LaFleur: So beautiful. And I love that. A big propellor, big reason for why you started this, too, is because you've had your own struggles and you've had your own journey with your healing in your first year. I remember that you said that you used to live in Paris, right? And then that you that you moved to where you are now. And France was two years ago. How long have you been living where you are to?
Manon Lam: Two and a half years ago.
Manon Lam: Yeah. Actually, I was living in Paris. I were I was working in a top French ministries in the political world, and it was really a life that could be appealing on the picture. But that was actually absolutely, absolutely exhausting and life-threatening for me actually, because I ended up being sick and having major issue that I think are related to stress and all this anxiety. I was also holding on to me and the fact that I was not living the life that I authentically wanted to live. So living Paris was kind of a big leap to take because I, I had to face each and every other person disapproval like they were thinking I was not doing the right choice, that I was being not enough ambitious. And so many things, including the fact that I was following my boyfriend, that was to leave Paris for personal reasons, too. And so it was really it was really a major shift in my life and also very hard because I felt very alone into that decision that was really going against each and everything you are you're supposed to do and be at 30, like having being super ambitious, being independent.
Kiyomi LaFleur: yeah, absolutely. I feel like you've gone through a huge awakening, actually, since I first met you. And I think I first met you maybe like a couple of years ago. I think it's been a bit since a year or so. But your wisdom in your awakening has been huge. And I just I feel like I continue to just, like, witness you at all and just like amazement with a lot of the work that you've done and continue to do. I know that you said that you were really struggling when you were living in Paris. And I'm actually curious a little bit of like your story with ROCD. I know that when we spoke, you said that it started when you were young. Were you living in Paris at the time? What were you like? Do you remember when it first started? I know that you said you used to have some OCD tendencies and then started with ROCD when you were about 13.
Manon Lam: Yeah, yeah. Actually, it started very early with my first relationship, romantic relationship that I had when I was kind of young. I was thirteen years old and at that time I was not living in Paris. I'm from the French countryside near to the beach, and I went to Paris to work when I was twenty. So at that time I was still living with my parents in this other place of France and I was at school. And so it started with this first boyfriend that was actually very abusive, but with me. But it started like I'm in classical ROCD dating all the time, like, is it the right one? During each and every moment of the day, it was really the worst, worst, worst time because I was so young and obviously I couldn't speak about it to anyone. I was confessing a lot to my boyfriend and it was someone very abusive. I stayed very a very long time with this guy. Unfortunately, you know, it's part of my story, but until nineteen, actually. So it was a very long story. After that, I had another boyfriend and that last also six years. And still I had major symptoms of OCD. But at that time I had no idea it was ROCD or even OCD. I just thought that I had a problem with relationships or that the person we're not the good ones, like I was really all in all in the just big mess when you don't know you are OCD. And actually it end up with this second boyfriend. And I had a third one. It stuck there and I had a third one and the one I'm with now. I confessed to him and actually helped me to unravel what was happening, he was really compassionate with me was trusting me. What you were saying that I was so unhappy. I was so sad, so desperate. And this is when I bumped into your YouTube videos because the day after I just went into YouTube and tried to find some keywords like relationship anxiety, blah, blah, blah. And I ended up on your videos, Kiyomi. And this is when my journey started. So and I was twenty seven at that time. So more than almost fifteen years after the first I received struggling with that.
Kiyomi LaFleur: I think that what's so interesting is that there are a lot of people who do struggle with our ROCD and they have no idea what it is. And they believe like in some way that it's the relationship or they don't understand what's going on. It seems like you were really kind of in that period for like a long period of your time where it started to kind of, you know, you start to kind of question yourself, it seemed, but then also your relationship as well. And then only recently you said a couple of years ago, then you started to kind of put a name to it by only two years ago. Four years ago. Years ago. Three years ago. Wow. Incredible. And then you've been going through such an incredible transformation and something that I really wanted to just address today and something you said so beautifully when I asked you, you know what the main core awakening kind of key secret to resistance is? And you said something where you said "behind resistance lies freedom", which I really just kind of want to create this whole podcast on and really help you, as a listener, today. Right now, understanding really what resistance is, how it shows up, why it's not bad and how you can start working with it. So, Manon, when you said that I like honestly got so many chills when you said that specific sentence, would you be able to talk just a little bit about what you meant when you said behind resistance lies freedom?
Manon Lam: Yeah, absolutely, what I mean is that, it comes back to my own story, when I felt that resistance in any form you can take was kind of a bad sign, a sign that I shouldn't go there, I shouldn't go deeper. I shouldn't dive into it because it if something was wrong in my body was wrong in my thought, it meant that it was not for me or I shouldn't go there and. What I meant by being resistance lies freedom is that resistance not a bad sign, but kind of a good sign. That means that you should go there. There is something to find there. There is something that's really empowering. And for me, empowerment comes with freedom.
Kiyomi LaFleur: I love so much. So resistance is almost like this, like hidden mask of like freedom and empowerment. So would you be able to give a couple examples of how resistance has shown up for you in your journey with ROCD so people can start to maybe recognize the different resistance that comes up for them? Because I think and see if this resonates with you, when one experiences resistance and when one experience is healing, they start to think that resistance is showing them that they're doing the wrong thing when in reality they're actually doing the thing that's actually necessary for their freedom. And sometimes they don't know that it's resistance. They just think it's part of the the voice within them saying that they're in the wrong relationship or there's something wrong. So what are some examples that resistance has shown up for you within your journey with ROCD and specific?
Manon Lam: Yeah, yeah, exactly. For me, this resistance with ROCD is really showing up in different ways. Actually, one is the classic for me, with ROCD, you know, like thinking that what you feel, what you experience is true. It's your truth and that it's real. And also like it's about the work. Like I was always questioning myself, am I doing the right work? Am I doing enough? I mean, do I get it in a good way? As OCD sufferers also like when it comes to the amount of time and dedication to the work, I was always questioning myself. Am I working enough? Am I am I too lazy to the point like this? Perfectionism was coming up and also and always destroying everything that I was trying to do. Like you are not doing enough. You are maybe not following the exact rules. I remember, for example, precisely when you gave us like this planner, daily planner. And for me it was like I loved it and I tried it, but it was a nightmare because every day was like, do I write the right thing? Or It's too much. I didn't do it. That means I'm lazy. Other ROCD people who do suffer must be doing every day and I'm not doing it is kind of resistance for me. There's a lot of perfectionism and also procrastination.
Kiyomi LaFleur: yeah, that's what's so interesting about resistance, is that from what I'm hearing from you, for you, it really showed up in the form of perfectionism and procrastination because procrastination at the end of the day shows up because we want to do things perfectly and we're afraid that if we don't do it perfectly, it makes think u that we're going to make a mistake or we're going to fail. So we end up not doing it and we procrastinate. And so a lot of people can approach healing in that way where they start to kind of go through this healing journey and then procrastination shows up and it comes within this kind of like underlying belief that I need to do healing perfectly. And if I don't do it perfectly, then in a lot of cases there's people who believe that either the relationship is going to fail or I'm going to fail or I'm going to find out that they're not the right person. Did you ever have those type of beliefs for any of them, but especially maybe the last one where if I do this, then I'm going to "find something out?" because I think that that is actually in a lot of cases a really, really, really big form of resistance that a lot of people don't recognize.
Manon Lam: Yeah, thanks for mentioning it, because, yeah, I forgot it, but it's the worst one for me. Actually, for me, the fear was either discovering something about my relationship with my partner or outgrowing my relationship. This one was the big, big one that I think I had with resistance. And I was not even aware that it was resistance. I couldn't believe at a time that this kind of thought could be a resistance. I was like, if it's about that means it's my it's in my head. So it's the truth. You know, I was kind of mixed, but yeah, absolutely. The fear of out growing my partner was the big resistance for me, like. Really preventing me from stepping up in my not in my power, but in my resistance, in my healing, and then in in the chance for me to be better and to experience better times.
Kiyomi LaFleur: So I just kind of want to, like, take a moment and just kind of just just pause, because this is such an important point, because I know that most everyone going through this journey will have that sort of resistance. And a big piece is exactly what you said. What if I outgrow my partner? What if I find out some sort of truth? What if I'm the exception? Right. Like and I am going to find out that even if I do all this work, that I'm not going to be able to get to the place that I want to get to. And that means I can lose my partner. I had a feeling that when we talked earlier, you said that that was something that came up for you like that specific belief or just kind of feeling like you didn't necessarily want to kind of do the work or you're afraid of doing it because you were afraid that you wouldn't be able to heal. Was that something that also came up for you as well, that you'd be like the exception or you would be different?
Manon Lam: Yeah, absolutely. For a long time, because of my background, like having ROCD for so long and discovering it so late and also because my OCD is intertwined with a lot of personal trauma, familial trauma, too, I was like, maybe it's too much and I'm not going to feel maybe I'm a lost cause. You know, maybe just awaken into love or just therapy is not enough for me. I had a very, very major breakdown last year around one year ago, really. I had to see a psychiatrist to take medication because my anxiety was so high, but now I realized, how can I say... The storm before the better times to come. But at that time, I was really thinking, you know, my healing journey was going to be better. And I have this big, major relapse, like very huge, very intense. And at that time, I really felt that I was a lost cause and that maybe it will never work for me.
Kiyomi LaFleur: I think that that can also be so defeating. It's almost like a trauma within itself when we're doing so well and when we're going through this journey and we're like, wow, I see myself getting better. I feel a lot more grounded in my nervous system. I feel more secure. And then we're kind of living in that momentum. And then all of a sudden we start to crash and then we start to question everything. And that's why I I want to bring up so much the importance of healing and how it looks and how when we go into that relapse or we go into the stages of regression, it's not anything bad. And it doesn't mean that we're actually failing, which I think is just something we haven't been taught in the healing process in society as well. But I love that you brought that up, Manon, because it's so real for most people who really go through ROCD. And I will say just the healing process in general. Right. Like it's even aside from ROCD, it's like even depression or anxiety or perfectionism that we're really working with where we it's not a straight line where healing is not. And resistance really comes up in a lot of ways because it's really trying to protect us. And I would love to kind of ask you kind of your perspective. I know you've been doing just such incredible awakening and healing within yourself and just the wisdom that you've accumulated. Why do you think that resistance shows up? What do you think that resistance now after you've kind of done this work and you're kind of in this place of of empowerment within yourself? And why do you feel it's been important for you, actually?
Manon Lam: Yeah, yeah, I do believe that resistance shows up with good intentions. For a long time, I had this mindset where "resistance is bad luck", you know, but now I get to a point like I realized that resistance is a blessing in disguise. It's really something that should be honored and tackled the same way we tackle other parts of our journey. It's really hard because I think it's right with how we value ourselves, like, am I good enough? Am I working enough? So we tend to see resistance as a proof that we are not enough when actually it's just coming up with good intentions, even if it's hard to believe. And it's very counterintuitive at first, it's coming to protect you. And I think it's just it's part of old coping mechanism that served us, at least for me that served me a lot when my childhood and living was very dysregulated adults around me. So I think when it's coming up, when I'm about to change or when I'm about to step up in a new phase of my healing, I see it like, you know, the old grandma a bit worried for you was like, "no, no, no, don't change. Dangerous is dangerous." And the more you try resist, the more she comes back. She comes back with a basket of cookie. "No, stay with me. Stay with grandma." And but actually, she actually is here because he wants to protect you even if it's uncomfortable. And so bringing compassion to that. It is really important.
Kiyomi LaFleur: I love that, I love that you use the grandma metaphor with the cookies. That's so adorable. I just kind of want to go into something really quickly when you said that it's trying to protect you. Would you be able to go into, like what it could be protecting people from? Because I think that sometimes that could be a trigger like, you know, some people might go into, "oh, what if it's protecting me from, you know, needing to know the truth of something?" So what are some examples you would say if you could talk a little bit about, like your personal experiences? What are some ways that you felt that resistance was protecting you from?
Manon Lam: Yeah, absolutely, yeah, and it triggered me a lot, too, because I was afraid of always this fear of finding out something you don't want to find out, like something is hidden from you. But actually, this resistance for me is trying to protect us more in a biological way, like very linked to our nervous system and everything. We have been wired for so long to live in in in a certain way when we try to grow and to change our way of living. I think what I call resistance is also nervous, nervous reactions of our body that wants to stay safe. And I want to avoid in any way something that could be dangerous like it sees everything from the lens of it could be dangerous, but it's just the protection of you in this way that I meant if it makes sense,
Kiyomi LaFleur: it makes total sense. It makes total sense in my mind. And kind of to piggyback off of that, it's really comes down to a couple of things, which is what you talked about, which is our brain is constantly seeking comfort. And when we're going into something that is new, even if it could be safe for us, the brain sees it, especially if it's had trauma and wounding as something that's scary and not safe because it's unfamiliar. Whenever we're stepping into something, it requires more brain energy, which the brain doesn't want to do. It wants to stay in kind of that but comfortable basis. And I'm not sure if you've kind of noticed this, Manon, throughout your journey, but in a lot of cases, especially if we've had trauma, a safe relationship, a safe and secure relationship is threatening. It can be really scary for some. Is that something that resonates with you when I say that that kind of resistance can show up when we're actually healing? This might seem counterintuitive to everyone who's listening right now that have safe relationships. Stepping into more vulnerability in a safe relationship actually can target the nervous system where the nervous system can go, "no, no, no, this is unsafe." Does that resonate with you on when I say that?
Manon Lam: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Because I would say that my actual partner is kind of secure and he has his own stuff, but overall is a secure person. And it's the first time I'm with this kind of person. When he is very nice to me really trying to help me at first, and now, I'm getting better, but I was kind of like "But why are you doing that?" I'm scared that that behavior means people are going to betrayal me in a way. And so yeah, I totally get that. And also the fact that for example, is really random that when my boyfriend is, I don't know, making the meal or doing something good for both of us, I always feel like, you know, it's not normal or there is something that's going to happen. To me, he's trying to be nice to up to be like this very warm. But I feel like I start to get very anxious. It's really something I don't feel safe in those situations.
Kiyomi LaFleur: Absolutely. Did it show up for you in different ways in the past versus now like for instance in the past did it show up as ... maybe the anxiety would come up and because you would be disconnected from the anxiety, it might show up as, "oh my God, like I feel uncomfortable. What does that mean? Maybe this isn't the right relationship" versus now, I would assume that there's some periods where maybe he might do something nice for you, but you're more aware of the anxiety to know that there's fear there. Like, is there a difference there from versus before the thoughts were more prevalent and now you're more in contact with kind of the core of what's going on?
Manon Lam: Yeah, absolutely. I would say that now it's a whole different situation because it's like I'm in the observer seat, you know, whatever happens in my head or in my emotions, even if it's not perfect and I want to add that I relapse also, I don't want to make a picture of everything is perfect, now I'mlways in the observer seat and everything is perfect... not at all. Like, it's always something to work and work on. But yeah, most of the time now I can see... How can I say... I don't know how to explain that... I don't know how to explain that, actually.
Kiyomi LaFleur: It's almost like a wisdom that it's so hard to explain. I understand exactly what you're talking about. And when we go through this awakening process and we go through this healing, it's like ...it can be so hard to explain. And I think that that's why some people kind of want this checklist of, like, when I'm healing, it looks like this. And when I'm healed, it kind of looks like X, Y and Z. But I think that the reason as to why there's so much like difficulty in explaining that is one, because I know it can be compulsive if I kind of bring up checklists and stuff for people, which is why I don't talk about it that much.
Kiyomi LaFleur: And then, two, it's also just kind of like it's so hard to explain. It's so hard to explain when you kind of get to this point where you are an observer, but you're not you're wounding anymore. It's almost like you're able to see your wounding and act from a different place that you have a choice with. It's like there's a choice. It's like wisdom. It's like empowerment that comes in that is able to see something versus being stuck in the trauma and in the trigger where you feel like there's kind of no way out except to cope through the obsessive thinking or something. That's right
Manon Lam: I called this: the space. It's like there is a little space between me... I mean, when I say "me" it's my essence, who I am behind all these clouds of the emotions and the space between my reaction and this essence, and the more I work, the more I feel the space is getting bigger and bigger. But sometimes it's it's very small, but it will always like, you know, work. And I think once you experience the space once, it never goes back to zero, like it can just grow. Sometimes it will get smaller, but it will never touch again. Like, I don't know if it makes sense, but...
Kiyomi LaFleur: It makes complete sense. It makes complete sense. And I love that. I love that so much. Isn't it so interesting to think about how before you probably had resistance to even being that observer in some way, I'm assuming like there was that resistance there. Do you remember kind of like how it was like when you started to kind of become an observer seat and start to kind of see your coping mechanisms? And was there resistance to being that observer? I'm sure in some cases there still is. And a lot of in a lot of ways.
Manon Lam: Yeah. And obviously I had this resistance at first. I think when you try to observe what you feel, what you experience, it's very counterintuitive. And I feel it was very fake at first. It's like it's fake. It's not working. There is no chance it's working. I can't feel anything. But I think it takes practice, practice. And I hate to say that because when I was in the middle of that, I was like, OK, it's practice it's practice... But when is it going to come? Like, I would love to tell people, like there is a secret sauce, but no, I think it takes time to try and try again and again. And I don't know when exactly... One day I realized I was a little bit in that observer seat and I was like, wow, it's happening now. But it's still, you know, a subtle. And maybe after this quick realization, it went back to before for a few days. And after it comes back, it's really, as you say, it's so hard to explain because I think it's different for everyone and there is no secret sauce. But what I can tell from my experience is that practice, even when it's uncomfortable and when it feels fake. Is making results and it would come I know it's hard, long sometimes.
Kiyomi LaFleur: No, I so agree and it resonates with me so much also within my own journey. And also, of course, you know, working with so many people. And I think that you're right when you say that healing does look different for so many people and there's a lot of it that's really similar. And I think that it's the same with resistance. Resistance can show up and look very different for a lot of people where one person might have resistance when their partner does something loving, whereas another person might have more resistance when their partner pulls away. And it just really tends to kind of show up in different ways. And just kind of coming back into the aspect of resistance. How do you feel that someone can start to become aware of their own resistance? Like how were some ways where you were able to start to be like, oh, OK, this is resistance here? Or is it something that feels somatic for you where you can notice it in your body? I think that it would be incredible to talk about how someone can start to become aware when they are resistant, to start to know that: One, that that resistance is part of the healing journey and is not anything bad. And we'll talk a little bit about why actually resistance is good and how they can start to actually use that resistance in a way to actually transform in a week and in a deeper way by kind of going back again. Manon, what were some ways or how were some ways that you're aware of now when you are just kind of able to see when resistance is there?
Manon Lam: Yeah, what was very a turning point for me was when I realized that perfectionism and procrastination can be resistance because I was really experiencing it a lot and I couldn't believe it was resistance for me. Resistance was intrusive thoughts, it was really, I don't know, like an emotion that is coming up, like something very clear. But I couldn't believe that this kind of pernicious tendencies of behavior that our perfectionism and procrastination was resistance. At first, recognizing and identifying this as resistance really helped me to understand that it was not me that was like, you know, a bad person or lazy person or whatever, not enough person. And that it was part of my journey and part of my resistance coming up. Once I experienced that, when I realized that I was able to understand that sometimes, for example, feeling super lazy resistance, like working 10 times a day over an hour exercise was resistance. I realized that. But in like in general, I think there is resistance when there is a very intense emotion or block or feeling of sadness coming up. I think it's really now the way I now recognize it when I feel that i'm stuck, there is something really big, like a a big obstacle in front of me. You know, I think it's the way I'm telling myself "this might be resistance coming up." Like there is something big, there is something sticky that is coming very often that is coming in very some kind of compulsive way. So this is the way I recognize it. But it's sometimes hard to recognize. It can be very pernicious and sticky and sneaky actually
Kiyomi LaFleur: Sneaky is a big word and unconscious at times. Or we don't recognize that something is resistance where we might be, you know, thinking that it is something that is just saying that the relationship is wrong or saying that we're doing something wrong or saying that we're making a mistake when in reality it is that sneakiness. And I think that the important thing to recognize and kind of bring back is that resistance is going to happen for everyone. And it doesn't mean that they're doing anything wrong. It doesn't mean that they're doing anything bad. And it's part of the journey. And I love just love the fact that I've been able to also witness you in your journey since, like when you started the ROCD course and came into AIR. I know that for many people who joined AIR, there was a lot of resistance. I don't know if you remember that or I don't know if you felt that way when you had resistance. But I think for a lot of people it showed up when they started to go into AIR as fear or like I'm not, I'm not enough or there's something may be wrong with me. Would you be able to talk just briefly about how resistance showed up for you when you step into AIR because I know that there was some fear there.
Manon Lam: Yeah, a lot of fear coming up once was very outgrowing my partner, I was afraid, like because, you know, he was more than just the course for healing ROCD, I was afraid I would move to a place where I didn't need my partner anymore or I was so awake that I was alone in my journey, you know, this kind of stuff. But also I have at the beginning of AIR and honestly, it took me a few months to really think I was really belonging to AIR. And at first I was like, maybe I shouldn't be there. Maybe I'm not healed enough, maybe always just enough like that. I think it's related to perfectionism. Like, am I healed enough, Am I ready enough. But I did it anyway and it is the best thing I did. But yeah, a lot of resistance coming up.
Kiyomi LaFleur: I think that that's so interesting that I kind of want to bring that back where you said that "AIR was one of the best things that you've ever done" and there was so much resistance to it and just kind of tying it back into resistance, resistanance can really be kind of that gateway into that freedom that we're really seeking. And the fears and the thoughts that come up that say "I'm going to outgrow my partner and I'm not going to be with my partner anymore because of this resistance." And it really lies to you in so many ways where it wants to keep you so small because it's trying to protect you. It's actually a very much based in survival. It's really targeting the reptilian brain to try to keep us in survival, but not an expansion. And what's so interesting, Manon, is that you had those resistances that the perfectionism of, you know, "I need to be a certain way. Maybe I'm not healed enough. Oh, my God, what if I lose my partner? What if I leave my partner?" How do you feel now that you're kind of looking at your past self when you had those resistances? How do you feel now in comparison with those fears that came up with the resistance that came up that said you're going to grow your partner? Do you feel that that happened in any way or do you feel that, you know, like how do you see that now when you think about your past self and how that showed up for you?
Manon Lam: Yeah, now, obviously, I see it from a very different perspective, because first I just want to say maybe some people that are listening will find it interesting that I never thought in my entire life I will be here making a podcast with you. I really thought I was, you know, the lost cause of Awaken to Love. And so it's really it really gives way true. And yeah, this resistance now I see it as an indicator that I was going the right way, that I was going to something that was good for me. But at first I couldn't see it this way and... where I am now, I'm thankful for this because I know that now if there is a resistance coming up, I can lean into trust more. I can just surrender and say, "OK, there is resistance. But look, remember, when you had resistance with AIR and look what happens next, you are better in your life now. You took so much of a leap the last months and you are better with your partner. And at first you thought you are going to leave him". So now when resistance comes up, I'm like, "OK, even if it seems scary, you know, there is more behind it." So you can go even if there is some fear, I think I'm more able to surrender and lean into that now.
Kiyomi LaFleur: Amazing. I love this so much. And I know we talked about this in air before. When people ask how do I build self-confidence and self empowerment and self trust? And they don't really like the answer, but we say actually doubt and resistance actually brings you into that if you choose to take that path. And that's really what I'm hearing from you. I'm hearing that you have used resistance and you have used doubt and fear in a way to actually bring you more into a place of self empowerment and self trust and self confidence within your journey. And I would say for you, not just in my perspective, I feel that our in the resistance has actually helped you build that self-confidence within yourself, where you've been able to take incredible leaps within your life and like your business. And I feel like it's almost in a blessing in disguise, helped you to become more empowered within yourself and also within your relationship.
Manon Lam: Yeah, absolutely, I think to say that if I didn't have ROCD, I would have never take this path of self discovery, of healing. And I think like just like when I had some major physical issues, it's same as I told you before, like it's really catalyst to really go deeper and. Yeah. To. A beautiful journey, even if it's hard. Obviously, I'm not saying it's all day, everyday rainbows and sunshine. Not at all. Not at all. But I think there is beauty in the depths that we're uncovering along the path, and I don't think so.
Kiyomi LaFleur: What would you say to some people who are interested in trying to work with their resistance? What are some things that you feel that they can start to do?
Manon Lam: Yeah, what they can start to do, I think, is being aware that there's resistance. The first is awareness, because most of the time, you may try to brush it away, like push through, which is very common in our society. But I think it really requires, and it's hard to do, and I still struggle to do that, is to really pause and stay with the resistance and whatever sensation arises. And I think when you have some trauma, it can be really hard because the somatic expressions of the resistance can be very hard to deal with and almost unbearable sometimes. So I would say awareness that with titration to and with gentleness because. It can be really a lot and, you know, just for going back to what you say before, when you say that, yes, behind doubt, and beyond resistance, there is a path to empowerment. I think also that it can be hard sometimes to balance and find the right way for us between battling our fears, going against the resistance and also re traumatizing ourselves. So there is a balance to find between both to believe, also care and soothe our nervous system, so I would say awareness also trying to befriend, befriend our resistance, speak to it with compassion and also working with the body, I think it's important with resistance because we try to most of the time, to work with resistance, with our conscious mind in a very active and conscious way. But most of the time it aggravates the resistance. So leaning into the body like. Where is it, my body, what forms and can be very interesting to leave the mind a little bit aside and work on the somatic part of resistance in the body,
Kiyomi LaFleur: Something really important that you also emphasized on his titration, which we talk a lot about in awaken into love, and we talk a lot about the difference with the awaken into love method and other OCD work, which we solely, strongly, strongly believe in emphasizing the importance of titration and compassion, because we're working with attachment styles, because we're working with trauma in many cases and wounding, it can sometimes be so aggressive and sometimes dangerous to just do exposure work without the titration and compassion, which is why we bring a lot of the importance of compassion work, which is what I heard you talking about into the work of resistance and our study and working with that compassion is such a big piece and it's really the core of our mission with a weakened into love. And really we really believe it's transforming energy into everything. And so I love that you said that, Manon, just in terms of really bringing that titration and kindness into what is coming up and also to trust in our bodies wisdom, which is what kind of can sometimes be triggering for people like I'm trusting my body is my body is telling me to leave. It's more in a sense of trusting what is there that needs to come up to be seen, to be healed, to awaken alongside of to just kind of go into awakening with and to just be patient and know that our body takes time for healing. It takes time for that awakening. And that aggressive approach can actually even temporarily, even though on the surface it can kind of go away really quick, it can kind of fire back later on the future if we're not compassionate and loving to our resistance and our healing.
Manon Lam: Yeah, exactly. Yes. And I think from, you know, my recent experience of business, it's something I've experienced to like this very. Intense, aggressive way of going into life, like there you go, you go after which you have to do this, you have to do that. And if resistance comes up, it means that you have to fight back because and it was really a retraumatizing for me to know that topic, that coming to resistance, it's something that resistance, not just around ROCD, can be found in each and every aerial flight when you step up to new levels to anywhere else. And I, I think it's something that this compassion piece is not just for resistance coming with ROCD, it's with everything in life, and even it's just in this business structures and approaches. I found it very useful, even if it was part of the beginning, to bring back that to that compassion, peace, and not to follow each and every advice that is out there that is not meant for everyone.
Kiyomi LaFleur: Well, I think that that's a big reason for why you are. Also a reason for why you started your own business in terms of being able to help the people who really feel like the aggressive approach isn't working for them and kind of feeling like they're kind of in that constant perfectionist aspect that they need to be more they need to be more and then burning out. And you've really been creating this incredible space for people to really come into their healing in a compassionate and loving way, which is actually the biggest catalyst toward healing. So I'm just so excited with what you do. If people are interested in finding a little bit more about what you do or working with you, what's the best way that they can find you?
Manon Lam: Yeah, so you can find me on Instagram @withmanonlam and I'll be opening some one on one slots to work with me with Deep Dive sessions in the month of June. So I'd be really glad to to share with you
Kiyomi LaFleur: Awesome. So exciting, Manon, thank you so much for being here. This was such a wonderful, wonderful podcast to talk about resistance and what can show up with ROCD and resistance. I think that there's so much that we could really dive into with resistance. And I hope for the listeners that this was helpful for you. What I would love to end in, Manon, is if there is one thing that you could say to someone who was struggling with their ROCD and resistance right now, what is one thing that you would say to them?
Manon Lam: I would say trust the process, even if it sounds very easy to say, I really know where you are, I really know what you are going through. But and at that time and at that place, I couldn't believe this sentence like trust the process. But actually, I promise it's true. You can trust the process, trust where the resistance is leading you in there. Yes. There is something beautiful for you behind it for sure.
Kiyomi LaFleur: Beautiful. So trust the process and there's something beautiful for you behind it which comes back into what we were talking about, which is behind resistance lies freedom. Even if it feels so hard. It's so true. Thank you, Manon. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for sharing your wisdom. I'm so happy you're here.
Manon Lam: Thank you so much.
Kiyomi LaFleur: Thank you.