How to Find the Right ROCD Values (ft. Jamie Lee)

Also Available on Apple iTunes

Hi everyone, welcome to the Awaken into Love podcast. Today, we have a guest on today's podcast, Jamie. Coming all the way from Tennessee was an ROCD course graduate, and she has been amazing. I feel like an amazing advocate and really spreading awareness on ROCD, spreading information on her own personal journey and how she's really found a lot of healing and awakening. I would say among her journey and also being able to help support others in what they are going through. So I am so delighted to have Jamie on the podcast today. Welcome Jamie, welcome to the Awaken into Love podcast. 

Jamie: Hello Kiyomi, I'm so happy to be here. 

Kiyomi: So happy to have you. You're coming all the way from Tennessee, and the first time I talked to you was like, Oh my God, your accent is so lovely. 

Jamie: Oh my gosh, you're too sweet. 

Kiyomi: I love that you're here, and I'm really excited because I feel like you've gone through a big journey with ROCD and you started to kind of bring your own journey into the light for other people to be supported, and I feel like that's an incredible thing that you've started and have been doing. How has that journey been for you? And kind of when did you start the process? Were you already in the thick of ROCD and you're like, I need to spread more awareness? Or has this been something recent that you've kind of started?

Jamie: Yeah. So I feel like I definitely had to do a lot of healing and learning and just processing my own stuff before I could really put it out there for others. I wanted to be sure that I wasn't doing anything for reassurance seeking things like that, so I feel like I really had to. I had to get through the thick of it before I could really be an advocate for others. So I had been. I think I had been in therapy and I had been in the course for probably about somewhere between three to five months and then I was like, OK, let's give this information to others because somebody might. Somebody might need it. 

Kiyomi: Do you feel like that was the biggest pool for you for creating that? A sense of? I feel like other people need to have support and need to have that information. 

Jamie: Yes. And specifically, I remember what I was feeling when I didn't know ROCD was ROCD, and I'm like, Oh my gosh, you know what? What does someone need? What did I need? What? What did I? What could someone else use? What did I? What was I hopeful's for and finding information and education? So that was a big one. 

Kiyomi: Such a big one. And like, I think a big reason for that is because I remember when I first started the YouTube channel, people might be surprised, but in my mind I was like, "There's no information out there. I started a YouTube channel. I think it was like 2007 or something like that. 

Kiyomi: Oh wait, not 2007, 2017, 2007 to be a really long time ago 2017. But I remember there was no information out there and I was like, No, I just need to put some stuff out there for people to not feel alone. And it seems like that's something that was really calling you. And you said like the three to five month mark where we probably just started to see new things or started to kind of have more clarity. And that was that it was more of the pool of wanting to spread support for others. 

Jamie: Yes, I definitely feel like I had more like mind shifts and different changes of perspectives and things like that, and definitely much more clarity. I feel like I was definitely still having some difficult times, but that was definitely a part of the period when I could look and see like, OK, this is this is a relapse. This is going to happen. I have to keep going and I have to keep what I can give people that I've learned from this? What can I? How can I provide others with support and education based on what I've been dealing with and maybe from this specific relapse? 

Kiyomi: That's amazing. I'm so curious. What do you feel like has been a really surprising thing for you having this kind of support on Instagram and creating this page? 

Jamie: Oh, my gosh. Honestly, sometimes people will send like the sweetest messages, they're like, Oh my gosh, you, I feel like you're talking to me. I feel like you made this just for me. And it's like, you just never know that people will think so highly of you and like just how kind people are. It's really it has made me so teary eyed before. I'm just thinking about it makes me so emotional, kind of because people are just so grateful and they're like, This really spoke to me. I have to keep going. Thank you. And it's just that the biggest wow factor for me is that others like it's being helpful for others and they're so grateful for it. 

Kiyomi: Honestly, people who experience ROCD anxiety have been the most kind people we have met. So loving, so empathetic, so compassionate. And there's those kind of like the flip side to that is that we've noticed that people who tend to be so kind, compassionate, empathetic, who tend to kind of go into hyper responsibility, hypersensitivity also have this like flip side of easily going into guilt and shame and really kind of working with that type of population. I'm sure you've probably seen that within yourself and then also the people that you're supporting with your Instagram channel. But I could see tears in your eyes as you spoke about this because there is something so rewarding about putting your journey out there and then really getting people to come to you and for them to feel really touched. And I'm sure that has also helped you in your journey in some way to maybe keep going within yourself. I would, I would assume. 

Jamie: Yes. During obviously relapses, they do happen. Difficult periods do happen. So when I get a message even just on a regular day and someone's like, Wow, this, this really helped me. This is me. This I feel like this is exactly what I'm going through. It's like, wow. In the beginning, when I thought I was all alone and there was, I was just it was just me and that I was hopeless. This person was like somewhere on this planet. Some countries, right? Find me experiencing the same thing. So the community aspect of ROCD is amazing, even though it's not on, you know, it's not the most enjoyable terms. The people and the kindness is unexplainable. And I really love that about the community that everyone's so kind and loving and empathetic towards others. 

Kiyomi: There's something huge to say about the community that isn't there, and I think that that's why we've created the ROCD course and different programs. And we really put a big emphasis on community because having that support knowing that we're not alone just creates more of like a safe container for our nervous system to heal. And I'm curious if witnessing that kindness from other people has allowed you to be kinder and more compassionate to yourself?

Jamie: Yes, it definitely it's I think it's just like a solid reminder, like how this person can be going through a really, really difficult time and they can take a second to be like, Oh my gosh, thank you so much. This has really helped me, and it's like, you should be doing the same thing for yourself. You should take a second and be like, OK, you're doing really well. This is a difficult time, but you've got this. This is totally OK. 

Kiyomi: I love that. I love the support that you're giving to people, and I love how you've been able to use, like what we say, like the mud to the lotus, which is basically that lotus flowers are able to grow without the mud. And we can do the same before we kind of dive into today's topic, which is all about feelings and emotions and different sensations that one can experience with ROCD and anxiety. I would love to hear a little bit about your own personal story with ROCD, kind of when it started to flare up, and this is just a reminder for everyone listening right now. Remember that this is Jamie's story. It doesn't have to be yours. And if there's anything triggering within this podcast, it's a great opportunity for you to use it as exposure work. But Jamie out here, just loves to hear just a little bit about different points where you kind of started to experience ROCD and how you've been able to work through a lot of the challenges that have come forth with having ROCD and going through this challenge. 

Jamie: Yes, of course. So I honestly now looking back, I've noticed that I've always been a very anxious person and I wholeheartedly think I've always had relationship anxiety due to some things that happened in high school relationships. And so I in the beginning of my current relationship with my partner, I notice this was before I started experiencing ROCD like hugely, and we get super anxious when he wouldn't reply like in a matter of seconds or as he was taking a nap and didn't reply by when I thought he should wake up from his nap. I'm like, Oh my gosh, you know, he's going to leave me something that's going to happen. It was just all of these like catastrophic thoughts, but nothing. I never really I never really paid attention until one night. This was probably when we began dating in September of 2019. And by that January, you know, I had kind of. It was this one night I was at work, actually, and I just had the thought of, "What if I don't love him at all? What if he's not the one?" And that's when everything kind of started that was like a big truck hitting its brakes and everything was just like, "Oh my God, well, if this is true. A week before that, I had heard a girl talking about ending her long term relationship. And I honestly think that was just a trigger that had laid dormant for about a week and then everything. And just kind of it snapped and everything began. And from that moment on, I was like, Oh my gosh, you know what? This is true, and I felt the anxiety and just my heart beating out of my chest like it was going to literally pop out of my chest. And it was like, then I went numb, almost like a trauma response where I've been. So from then on, I obviously was my partner here, he stayed with me the whole way through it. He was always super supportive and even at times when I was like, Oh my gosh, you know, I don't think I can do this. I don't think I don't think I can be with you because I'm this way and I'm experiencing these thoughts and feelings. He was right there by my side and never, never, never gave up, even when I wanted to. So up until about this, I would say. October or November of 2019 was when I joined Awaken into Love and began therapy. So from January till October, November when I found you guys and was like, OK. Something is seriously wrong. It was definitely the hardest period of my entire life because that was gosh, maybe six months, I would say, of reassurance seeking, Googling, on Reddit. It was just constant every day. I couldn't eat. I couldn't sleep. I cried nonstop. It was. It was constant up until I started being like, Okay, I've got to get support. I've got to get some help. And we've gotta get through this. This is not solving this problem. Not a problem. But this experience, it's not been helpful for me.

Kiyomi: And that's kind of when the journey started to kind of unravel itself where you start to probably understand more about what was going on, the different types of symptoms, the triggers and everything. And I know you were doing ERP work alongside the Awaken into Love course, right? And that's been helpful for you, I'm sure. And we both have probably been giving you a lot of insight. I think that what was interesting to me that you talked about, which I get a lot of people DMing us about, is you started off with experiencing more of the relationship anxiety where you were anxious about how your partner was going to leave you and if they were sleeping or not and texting you. And then it started to morph into like the flip side, which this does tend to happen. And we don't talk about it just too much because I think it's more of that relationship anxiety blend. And then it started to flip for you, feeling as though you could end the relationship or something that happened on your end where you had that choice if you knew where to take that action. And it seemed as though that's when the obsessive compulsive thoughts really start to spiral for you. 

Jamie: Yes, like I. Oftentimes I refer to myself. I would try to tell people like, Oh my gosh, this is what's going on. And I would be like, It's just like a light switch. Someone flipped on a light switch, and that's it literally just slips. And now that I see, I see that ROCD can do that. And even anxiety. So, but definitely, definitely this is the flip of the switch there. And it wasn't something that I noticed until I was just introspecting one day and I was like, I've always been an anxious partner. I've always been that way. So now it's starting to make so much more sense. It all comes together. But even if you haven't always been an anxious partner, totally OK. It can definitely just begin for you, and that's totally fine. 

Kiyomi: I think that what you're also bringing up about the anxiety and you saying, I've always been an anxious person and ever since high school, you know, I really recognize that there was anxiety there. What I'm hearing over and over again is like the feelings and the sensations that you've experienced, which can be one of the most difficult parts of experiencing ROCD and even anxiety, which is the emotions that come up like the fear, the sadness, the anger, but then also the sensations that many people don't really talk about. And I want this podcast to be empowering, which we will do for people not to go into reassurance. But I think it is important to talk about, you know, the different sensations that can come up with ROCD. 

Jamie: Yes, there's so many. So like, it's like a huge book. I feel like anything and everything can come up with ROCD. And it's just a part. It's an aspect of it. 

Kiyomi: I think something important that I almost want to start with is that being human is experiencing sensations, emotions and feelings. And I think that if we can start to look at this human experience and start to not need to identify feelings or sensations as being bad, but more so this amazing human experience that where we can sometimes feel so crappy, but then so elated, so sensational. But then also so much, then we can give more of a space to us just being human. And I'm not sure if you kind of started to move more into that journey because I think that in the beginning we can go into, OK, this is a sensation with ROCD, that's great, OK? This is part of ROCD. OK, good. But that can be super compulsive, and it actually doesn't help us. 

Jamie: Yes, I have to agree 100 percent when the labeling was helpful, but it did end up being compulsive for me, and I think it can be compulsive with anything when you're like, OK, this checks off, this checks off of ROCD and then something will come up somewhere somehow, even if it's just like hot, it can even be like a tree outside. Oh my gosh, I saw this tree that means something that's not in the checkboxes. You identify it as, Oh my gosh, that's that's not. This is. All this is I must be experiencing my truths, "truth". I definitely must say that the biggest shifts when I started in my journey was the mind shifts, and when I started seeing ROCD and the specific feelings that I didn't want to experience and those just difficult, uncomfortable things to sit with and to feel when I stopped identifying them as bad, crappy, unwanted, they started to lighten up a little bit. So when you just look at it as an experience, a part of life and a part of being human, it gently started to look just almost like things got lighter and you could kind of breathe again. 

Kiyomi: So what would you say you were doing prior to that with the specific sensations that would come up? Would you identify it immediately as good or bad or try to figure them out? 

Jamie: Yes, definitely. Like, Oh, this is so bad, I shouldn't be feeling this way. I don't want to feel this way. And then definitely trying to solve them. Figure it out. OK? What does this mean? And then you try to pick it apart. Like, it's some math equation, but it's this math equation that you can never find the answer to. 

Kiyomi: So what would you typically do in a situation where let's say you had this feeling come up that it was like all like, you're with your partner and then all of a sudden your stomach drops, would you start to go into obsessive thinking if you could take us through kind of that journey of what you'd go through, that would be amazing. 

Jamie: Yes. So typically it would be things along the lines of like, Oh, I just I'm feeling like I don't want to be with him. I don't want us. And then I would feel the anxiety in my chest and my heart would just be out of me. And then I'd be like, Oh, my gosh, is this real? How do I know if this is real or not? Is this true? And then I would typically go into Googling and going through blog posts and read it, which I never recommend. Don't do it, everyone. Don't do it. Don't do it, please. And then I would. I would check, check, check, check point. Oh, am I still feeling that? If I'm feeling that, then it must be real and just trying to pick it apart like it's some puzzle or something. And eventually I would likely end up crying and then confessing to my partner. And then it would just and then it would kind of simmer down. But a lot of the time for me, it would just be something that would stay there constant. And I always try to figure out, why is this still here? It's so constant for me. It must mean something.

Kiyomi: I think that's a really, really big piece for a lot of people with ROCD, which is if this is still here, especially if I've done a lot of inner work and therapy and it's been going on for a long time, if this feeling and sensation is here still, then it must mean something. And I think that, the biggest catch that people get into is if this is still here, it must mean it's real. Or the back and forth of Is this real? Is this not? Is this real? Is this not? I think that that's a really big part, especially in the beginning of ROCD. And as you were talking about this, I was like, there are different layers to the healing process where in the beginning people are definitely more enmeshed with feeling as though the feelings are them and that it must mean something. And then over time, there's more of that separation with healing where a person starts to go, I see this, OK, I recognize this. I see this pattern coming up again, and then there's more space and then a person starts to go into the space that you're talking about, which is, I am this human. I am this soul, I'm this being and I experience different sensations. They come in and out, but they don't have to define me. And there's almost like this curious, playful energy to it. I don't know experience that, but I feel like that's really kind of that hallmark of that awakening, of that healing where we can bring more curiosity instead of a black or white definition. 

Jamie: Yes. One hundred percent. I love what you said. That's so true. I feel like at one point where it was in the beginning when I was in the huge stack of ROCD, it was definitely not curious. It was like panic and fun. 

Kiyomi: There's like no curiosity that can come in at that point. 

Jamie: It was like. Oh, my gosh, it was just like a wind up toy, and it was just constantly like it was just going everywhere and then a storm. Now, even because there are times where I still get triggered and I'm like, Oh, OK, I see you. Thank you. Whatever. You know. 

Kiyomi: It's so beautiful about this, this kind of healing process that you've probably also been able to step back and witness where you were saying then in the beginning, when ROCD hit, you were like, this wound up toy. And then now there's more of a space to recognize. What would you say? Like a space to recognize? You have more power, you have more choice. What would you say that is. 

Jamie: Definitely there's more power. And the fact that I don't know, we are like the observer of our thoughts and feelings like that is not me. I'm this person who enjoys, you know, all these things and I am not the things that I experience. I am not the things that my ROCD wants to convince me of. That's not me. So just that you're definitely separate, there's definitely a separate part of you. 

Kiyomi:  What would you say are the things that were really helpful for you to start to go into that observer's view? Because that observer view is definitely a step into the awakening process where we start to go away from "I am my experience and my feelings and my thoughts" to "I am the observer and witness", and we step into a sense of empowerment. What are some things that were helpful for you? 

Jamie: Definitely acceptance. Once I was able to bring acceptance to anything and everything that I would experience, even if it was like the most difficult thing that I had witnessed, bringing acceptance to that was so helpful. And it just kind of gives you permission to let that be OK and just let that be. So what's uncertain and you haven't picked apart if that intrusive thought is right or true, whatever you say that that's OK, and that was definitely not something I could do in the beginning of my journey, and I know so many people can probably relate to that. They're like, I don't understand. I cannot just accept that. So you definitely, definitely acceptance, self kindness and compassion. 

Kiyomi: Such big drools to the awakening process for people who may be just starting off this journey or for people who might need reminders today. What is the definition or example of acceptance? Because I think a lot of people get into it, but if I accept it, I accept my thoughts to be real. And that must mean X, Y and Z. So how would you be able to assist someone in moving into a playfulness or a practice of acceptance? 

Jamie: So for me, I think a good way for it to identify acceptance and might give a good definition of what it can be. It's bringing kindness and security to whatever shows up, no matter what it is, whether it be an uncomfortable thought, feeling sensation, anxiety, it's just like bringing okayness and security to that. Like, for example, it's raining outside, that's acceptance. We don't have to do anything about it, it's not, my gosh, it's raining outside and all these things attached to it, just that it's raining outside and that's OK. That's acceptance.  

Kiyomi: I love that so much for the acceptance piece that can be in the kindness piece. It can be hard for a lot of people who also one don't feel like they deserve the kindness or more in a state they don't feel that the kindness is safe or it feels fake, or they're resisting or running away from something that they could be avoiding. So definitely that step of moving into that kindness piece can be challenging. So, you know, we talk so much with Awaken into Love about compassion, and kindness. I would say that that practice has completely changed my whole life. I don't know where I would be if I didn't have the practice of compassion and kindness. I'm sure you probably felt the same way when you started to dive into that work of compassion and kindness. You're probably like, I'm saying, this is an assumption because most people with ROCD experiences, especially our course members, but they're like, I didn't even know such a thing really existed or was so powerful.

Jamie: Yes, I definitely think acceptance and kindness can not only help you in your healing journey, but it can help you in everyday life as well. Like, even if I spill something or drop something, I can be like, Oh my gosh, why don't you do that? And it's like, Oh, I love you, it's OK. You're just a human. It's totally OK. Like? And then I can go on about my day and not be angry at myself or no matter what that might be, it could be spilling something or, you know, bumping into someone or making your friend upset like, I'm human and this is okay. It's all okay. 

Kiyomi: I love that it's all OK. Let's go a little bit into the sensations, like the really difficult sensations that can come up with ROCD. I'm curious if there's anything in specific that comes up for you where you're like, OK, these type of sensations are, you know, something that was so hard for me that you've also seen with a lot of your followers who have come in and talked about it and how you've kind of been able to to work with that. 

Jamie: So one thing would definitely be anxiety, that anxiety in your chest or in your stomach, or even if it's just like a fast pace heartbeat. For me, that was always something that, oh my gosh, it has to mean something. If it's here, that was always something really difficult to learn to identify with anxiety. This is okay. And different people might experience anxiety differently as well. So some might feel it in their stomach or in their chest. I feel like whereas for me, it was just like this uncomfortable sensation or just it was like little bugs that would just crawl around and it would just be there and it would freak me out so badly. 

Kiyomi: And I would assume that your mind would probably go into it if I'm feeling this and this must mean something. And I think that with ROCD, people can get so tied into feelings almost being like the dictator toward what they should do. So how did you start kind of working with sensations, not leading you toward making different choices and kind of the topic of values and the importance of starting to use values in the choices that we start to make? 

Jamie: Yes. So, so many times I would see things like thoughts are not facts and feelings aren't facts. So as silly as it might sound, that was really something that I started applying to my life. These feelings aren't facts, so I don't have to use them to dictate my choices, especially when I'm hopeful for a different outcome than what I'm, what I'm dealing with right now, what I'm sitting with, what I'm feeling. So definitely that aspect, definitely just leaning more toward my values because I would freak out like if I if I'm not, I've always let my feelings lead my choices and guide my choices. And now that's not. It's not safe for me anymore. What am I supposed to do? Like, how am I supposed to make choices? That's when I definitely started moving toward my values. What are the things I'm hopeful for in this life? What are the things that mean so much to me? What? What are my goals? What do I like to see come out of this? And that's really what I've started moving toward, and that was so helpful for me. 

Kiyomi: That's a really big thing that a lot of people experience, and I experience that significantly, too. I was like, Well, if I don't lean into my feelings or just listen to my feelings, then what am I leaning into? And we usually see that, especially with people who have gone through different childhoods where they needed to rely on their feelings to feel safe or to make sure that their external was OK or their parents were OK. So like if a parent was acting a certain way, then the child had a certain feeling then that they'd kind of know what's going on. And so instead of leaning into if a child has a certain feeling but they're safe and leaning into more of a state of everything is still OK and bringing safety to the nervous system. If a child didn't have that support or have that specific security from a parent, then they would start to use their feelings over and over again to dictate their choices that they make in life. And so with people, with ROCD, it's usually like this, like wiring of OK, if I don't listen to my feelings, if I can't rely on my feelings all the time or my emotions or my sensations, what do I lean on? And you brought something up so beautifully, which is when you start to lean on to your values. You start to lean away from the feeling. So I think that definitely comes at a time right where you're like, I can't even trust myself. I can't even get these feelings. What am I supposed to even lean on? But it seems like you decided to kind of move into the values component, which is so important for everyone with ROCD, especially when they start to get into the loop of what do I lean on if I can't listen to my feelings? 

Jamie: One hundred percent, absolutely. I definitely knew that and I thought if I kept trying to rely on my feelings and just reaching for these feelings that I mean I, I would end up like these breakup urges and things like that, it would definitely. It's like if I try to listen to this instead of going all values based actions where it's going to just be very back and forth, like we're going to be breaking up with your partner every second. Or I'm not going to go to work because I don't want to, things like that. So really what's your ability to move toward values based? It's definitely more, I'm going to say, more safe and secure for me personally. 

Kiyomi: It really is. There's something so safe about leaning into our values and allowing that to be kind of the light toward the end of the tunnel, especially when we're going through ROCD. Because what happens, especially in the beginning, is we can't really lean on our feelings. Then eventually, over time, especially if we've gone through the healing of ROCD, then we can start to kind of listen to our emotions, play with it, lean into a little bit, but follow our values. I'm curious if you have any specific practices or anything that the listeners could do to be able to tap into their values. Like what are some things that have been helpful for you in finding your own values and listening to that?

Jamie: So for me, definitely values are like, OK, what are the things that are closest to me and close to my heart? Like, what are the things that I'm wishful and hopeful for? And that was a really big way for me to find my values and to see what is most important to me. And it's like, OK, my thoughts and feelings. They're always, they're always fluctuating and they're always changing. But my values are kind of like a summit, where concrete, like they're they're they're with me, they're safe to lean on. Whereas my feelings and things aren't. So especially, especially when you're still in the thick of it, it's kind of like, OK, what does this reflect my values? Does this reflect what I'm wishful and hopeful for? Obviously, you don't want to use that like a compulsive checking like manner, but that was definitely something that helped me, was checking in and seeing if I was reflecting my values and the things that were close to me and my heart. 

Kiyomi: So what's one thing that you use or have used for your values that have helped guide you? 

Jamie: So definitely I am someone who has to keep track of everything on paper, so I would always write my values down. And that was definitely something that helped me identify, OK, like peace and family and things like that were important for me, and those were super helpful reminders on difficult days and on days when I really wanted to listen to these feelings and be straight away from what meant the most to me. 

Kiyomi: So how would you work with the specific one that you picked on the top one, which is peace? How would you use that as a value when you experience ROCD and you're like, I can't even figure out which way I'm supposed to go? OK, but peace, like how would you use that as your light? 

Jamie: Yes, so like, OK, peace. Peace is, you know, obviously not this anxiety and these uncomfortable things that I'm feeling like it's not spinning out, so I don't need to rely on the spinning out and the anxious thoughts and things. Peace is acceptance and being OK with whatever's here. Peace is like, OK, this is all OK, since you're going to be OK. Peace is being able to go outside and just enjoy the sunshine, no matter what you're dealing with. So I think really being able to identify what is peace for me, peace is being able to be OK despite what I'm going through. And that was really something that led me closer to figuring out what my values were and what was close to me. 

Kiyomi: I love that. It's really like this kind of play when we're feeling anxious. What is it that we're wanting to move more toward? Yeah. And one value of mine that I really actually two big values of mine that I leaned on when I had ROCD was growth. So for me, it was understanding that stepping in and doing the work and doing all the healing was leading me toward growth. So that was a really big one that kind of kept pulling me, pulling me forward. And so, you know, more of that wholeness. And then the other one was using my challenges as a way to be able to help others. So every time the ROCD would come up with anxiety, I just kind of had this like this deep. And I know this word can be triggering for some people, but I'm going to say it anyway. This deep, intuitive feeling that I was going to in the future, be able to help other people. And so I used the ROCD as like that force to be like, OK, this is something I can become curious of because this challenge is becoming presented to me in order to be able to support others. So those were two really big values of mine which healing in such a big value of mine. But I love, yes, that you used peace, but you used it in a way of not necessarily trying to feel peace, feel peace, but almost like this lifestyle for yourself or like living a more peaceful life and doing the work to get there.  

Jamie: Yes. Absolutely. And I wish when I was working, I would say I was working with my therapist alongside the course, one of the things that kept me going. And she would oftentimes and I didn't realize that this was almost like us going through my values. It's like, you know, what are the things that mean the most to you and what are you hopeful for? And I was always I would always put down, like being able to help others with this, like being a voice for others. And so I definitely think that working with her and being able to have help identifying these things also led to a greater like a more peaceful aspect as well in the midst of my being in the thick of it when I was really dealing with a difficult spiral. 

Kiyomi: And you also wrote family on one of your values, right? You think you said peace, family and there was something else that you were saying. I don't remember the third one, but you wrote family for you. So I'm assuming that whenever you would experience ROCD, you would kind of use that awakening as a means to think about a future family with your partner. Is that what you meant by that? 

Jamie: Yes. For me, family, I kind of for me, family is like for me, it's like our relationship like that. I have my family, like my mom and my sister, things like that. But this is my partner and I would. I have high hopes of this being my family someday. And like most of my family, I don't know if that makes much sense or not. But it's like, how can I use this to help motivate me and to help me grow? So instead of using, I guess, relationship as a value because for me, that would at the time that would kind of be triggering. And I would find myself spinning out. I just was like my family and it's like, OK, how can I? How can I grow this? How can I work toward creating this family aspect with him in the midst of this challenge in this journey? 

Kiyomi: I love that so much. What is something that you would say to someone who's really struggling with trying to find their values and maybe they're kind of going into like feelings too, because I think some people go into a value, some people might say a value of mine is being happy and they'd be like, OK, well, my partner sometimes makes me happy and kind of leaning off of like the emotions. And I think that it may be important for a lot of people to not focus on the emotion part, right? Like the values, especially when we're working with ROCD. But what would you say to someone who's really struggling? Like, I don't know, you know what my value is and and kind of how to start working with that? 

Jamie:Yes. So for me personally, I feel like I've said this a hundred times, so I'm so, so sorry. But it's like, what? What are you hopeful for? What are things that are near and dear to you? How can you grow more toward those things? And it's like, what? What are you hopeful and wishful for with this situation? And what with your values and things in your life that you want to grow toward? And for me, that was definitely a big help. And that that was a way for me and not hyper focus on my feelings and to make choices from my feelings. That was OK. These are the things that I'm really hopeful for and things that I want to go toward. So it's like, what do you want to go toward? What are you hoping for? What are you wishful for? 

Kiyomi: I love that so much because it's so concrete and it's more of a sense of like going more toward a possible future. Like these possibilities? I'm going to throw this and it's going to be a little bit of a challenge. But yeah, I know that there's some people with the thoughts that are coming in. What would you just say to someone who is saying, I don't even know what I'm hopeful for because sometimes my mind says I should be with my partner. I don't. What would you do in that situation? 

Jamie: Oh my gosh. Well, I'm sure some people are going to be like, Oh my gosh, really? I would tell them, it's OK. It is totally OK to be experiencing that. It's absolutely OK. You're human and you are allowed to experience that. And one thing that is really important to remember is that while we think, OK, this, this is going to last forever, this it will subside and it will pass and there will be, you know, there's likely going to be a time in, you're like, Oh yeah, I can see that that was just a just a messy spiral. And my partner is pretty cool. And I see that now, like, you are right, it's totally OK.

Kiyomi: So true. And I love that so much. It's really this. This is also this essence of coming back into the sensations and the feelings of going into this understanding that whatever we experience is OK. And I think that our mind, especially when it becomes obsessive, compulsive and anxious, latches on to needing this box and this label of making sure that we're feeling the right sensations. And if this sensation isn't in the ROCD box, then what does that mean? And if that's you and you're listening right now, again, know that you're so not alone with this. And Jamie and I are really wanting to invite you into moving into more of this space if you were just a human being and you don't need to be defined in a certain box to be a certain way. But not only that, and I don't know if, Jamie, you've kind of started to move more into this journey of letting go of that label of ROCD or not, but more so of having these empowered choices to just choose despite ROCD or not. I don't know if that's a journey that you've kind of been going through within yourself, but starting to, like let go of that label. I think that in the beginning, labels are important. But then later on, we start to move more into just this being that experience. 

Jamie: I definitely feel like it's a label that I still use, and I definitely went through a part in my journey where it was just like the one thing that defined me. It's like I have ROCD. Like, if I could have tattooed it on my forehead, I probably would have. And then I started realizing, like, OK, I this. This label is not the most important thing about me, and it doesn't define who I am. It's an experience. So once I definitely have seen myself just kind of let go of this label and just be able to see these thoughts and feelings as an experience, rather a I don't know, like a big disappointment like that can never get better. I just see it as like this experience. And I hope that if someone is experiencing something and they're like, Oh my gosh, this isn't in the ROCD box, it must be. I don't have ROCD. I hope they will just like, take a second and be like, I'm one more person in this journey that has this unique little thing that I'm experiencing that's giving me trouble. And that's so OK. Please pat yourself on the back like you're just another person out there who's dealing with something a little bit different. Or maybe the same with someone else. It's totally OK. 

Kiyomi: I think the two really big distortions that people can go into that feel so painful is the one that you brought up earlier, which was what if this is real or not? What if this is true or not with the feelings? And I think the second one is, what if this is an ROCD and this is really how I'm feeling. And when people go into that black or white thinking of that labeling again, we're talking about the sensations of, Oh my god, what if this sensation isn't ROCD? It's the same thing when we go into that black or white, we're not giving ourself the space of the human experience that we are experiencing and also the greatness of being in a relationship where we don't have to define ourself with having ROCD or not. And that meaning that we need to leave our partner or not. There's so much space to even saying, OK, maybe it's not the exact definition of ROCD, but then I get to figure out what's not working in the relationship or within me and change that and create something more expansive with me and my partner. You know, it doesn't have to feel so black or white, and I kind of just wanted to add that in and also just with the sensations as well that we can experience and not let it define us or our relationship. 

Jamie: Yes, I remember either you said it in a live or you said it and the YouTube video that relationships are something that we can create what we are hopeful for and what we would like in a relationship. We can create that maybe along the lines of a video you're talking about finding the one or something like we can create that. And for me, I think that was like a huge, huge, huge, huge mind shift. Is that OK? I might not have this exact aspect that I'm wanting or looking for or whenever. So how can I? How can I incorporate it? What can I do? What are some actions I can take or what? What can I do to add this in there and maybe just add it in a little bit? 

Kiyomi: I think that when we go into black or white thinking and we feel like we have, we don't have a choice, we have forgotten our innate essence of creation and being able to be creative. I feel that we have been put onto this Earth for many different reasons. But one reason is for us to create and to have fun and to play in a way where we have something in front of us and we get to fit more like a piece of art, like a sculpture. And I remember my leg clay. I remember my dad saying that to me. I think this is when we had our first talk ever. And I came into his room and I was like, Oh my God, I don't think I love Joel anymore. And he was like, Kiyomi, like, love is an art. And that's always stuck with me when I think about it, like this block of clay we have in front of us. And this clay works with us in different ways like it feels good. The texture, we're like, OK, this is something I can work with. And then the other person is behind it, we're in front of it, and we get to kind of sculpt this piece of art and we can't be like, that nose isn't really fitting really well. Maybe we can shape it this way and we start to create our own creation together. And I think that is so beautiful. I think that's magic, and I think that that's more exciting than having this set idea of, OK, the one, they're destined. That's it. You know, that's all versus like this creation, and I think that's so much more rewarding and fulfilling. 

Jamie: Yes, absolutely. I definitely feel like when we're shoulding, as you say, all over ourselves or like, Oh my gosh, it shouldn't be the way it should be this way, da da da very black and white. We're putting ourselves into a box and we're not giving ourselves the choice of like, OK, how can I mold this? Maybe I want to make a vase, or maybe I just want to make something like a flower or a sculpture or something like you're not giving yourself the choice and you have the choice and you can make it just like clay. I think that's so beautiful. You can work with it and make it. It's definitely possible 

Kiyomi: when I'm talking about this and thinking that we can also do very similar things to the sensations and the emotions that we feel in the body. Yeah, I'm kind of thinking about it, I'm like, it doesn't have to be so concrete. It can be something we play around with. I think inner child work is really powerful. Have you done inner child work yourself, Jamie, or some people talking to us? Some people don't. 

Jamie: I have always said that I would love to tap more into it. It's definitely on, it's definitely on my to do list to be able to tap more into it. But I'll definitely own it. It's like, OK, I love that you said, how can we play with what we are feeling? So at times, yes, I do find myself doing inner child work. I guess it's like, OK, we're feeling less sensation or this, you know, what is this? How can we know what? How could we use this as a positive thing? And it's like, OK, let's go for a walk or let's play with the dog or something that just really makes us feel safe and just more secure with ourselves. 

Kiyomi: I think that's a big thing, right? The sensations that come up, I'm just thinking of anxiety comes up and we have all these physical sensations in our stomach. We kind of get to be creative in a way where we get to have conversations with whatever is here. So this is basic mindfulness work for everyone that I have conversations with what is here, but basically with mindfulness work and even with the A.W.A.K.E Technique or what you would do with inner child work is that if there was like an emotion or sensation that came up, let's say it's like in the stomach. Some therapists also use it in this way where they start to define it and they go, OK, what color is it? How big is this? What shape is it? And in that way, we create more of a separation, but it feels more safe in the body to work with it. And that itself is like a creation right. It's kind of like playing with. And then what we usually do is we start to label it OK. It feels big. It feels like sadness. Oh, it reminds me of when I was younger. And then we start to ask and work with how we can support that part within ourselves. So it's kind of this intimate relationship that we go into where we're like, Oh, what is the sensation? Yeah. Oh, you're feeling sad? Oh, OK, you want acceptance, you want compassion. Oh, or today you don't want that. You want more of a space to just be right. So we kind of play around and work with that, which I think is a beautiful way to work with sensations. And, you know, the emotions that we do experience and we found it to be just so helpful for a lot of our clients and course members. 

Jamie: Yes, I love using it as a love that you brought up mindfulness because it's like, OK, I'm feeling this. What can I do for myself? How can I take care of myself? And maybe that's like for myself, it might be like placing my hand on my heart and taking a couple deep breaths and just being like, You are OK, this is OK. Whether it's, you know, something that's going on throughout my day or ROCD type of deal. Or maybe it's like, Oh, let's have a cup of tea, let's get that warm, calming tea and like, let's take a bath or things like that. It's like giving yourself the things that you need or like the things that you might be yearning for. 

Kiyomi: And what's interesting is sometimes that exposure work, right? Like this sensation that we just got to breathe and feel into it and allow our nervous system to recognize this, this trigger as not something so serious. So sometimes we have to have that more like masculine that push role and then more of that feminine, that flow. And I just kind of want to bring this up because I know that sometimes it's going to be triggering. But I'm not talking about female and male what I'm saying feminine or masculine, it's more of the energy within our body and holding both. So I love that. I love that I feel like this has almost been like this. Like this understanding for me, too, of starting to bring more gray and creation and playfulness to whatever we're experiencing. And I think that we can do that in a relationship. We can do that with ourselves, and I think that that can be such an empowering thing within our life. 

Jamie: Yes, I honestly think you can. You can honestly do it with anything, even with ROCD, you can apply it to any and everything. And I think that's a wonderful thing, and I think that's a wonderful tool that you can utilize. 

Kiyomi: I so agree. Well, thank you, Jamie. It's been so wonderful having you. You're so welcome. I'm so glad that we've been able to take time together and to have you on this podcast. I also wanted to let people know your Instagram handle, which is @jamielee_rocd. So it's Jamie, and then Lee underscore ROCD and you can find her on Instagram. And she posts a lot of awesome stuff, all in regards to ROCD. And she's been such a beacon of light and support for a lot of people, so definitely check her out. I'm so happy and I'm so excited, and I always love having course members and graduates on the podcast because I also love being able to see them when they first started and being like, Oh my God, look at you now. And that's always so exciting. So thank you so much, Jamie. 

Jamie: Thank you. So it's such an honor to be here today, and definitely it's like I'm so grateful to just have been here today. Looking back. I never thought I would be here sitting with you, and it's like, Oh my gosh, I'm here, I'm sitting with you on this podcast.

Kiyomi: That's a testament to your growth. 

Jamie: Anybody can do it. 

Kiyomi: Anyone can do it. I so agree. Well, thank you so much, Jamie. I so appreciate you. Thank you for being here. 

Jamie: Thank you.