Interviewing My Husband on ROCD (Relationship OCD)
Hi, everyone, welcome to the Awaken into Love podcast, this is your host, Kiyomi Lafleur, and we are on episode number 15. I'm so excited and nervous to share this podcast with you. Why? Because I interviewed my husband Joel in this specific episode. But I'm nervous because we never really speak about our personal relationship to others.
Honestly, our relationship feels pretty private and intimate for us because we find our relationship extremely sacred. So we were really being open and honest in this podcast to come from a place of vulnerability, to be able to support you in your journey. Many of you know that Joel and I have gone through a lot together. We've been together since we were in high school. Joel was 15, I was 17. We've been in a long distance relationship, moved to another state together, witnessed a close star, got engaged, got married and started our business together at the same time. So we've really gone through the journey of being in so many different transitions together. And in this podcast, we talked a lot about our journey together, our journey together with ROCD, really important tips that can help you and your partner and how your partner can work through those things with you to build even more deep, deep intimacy, even during difficult things that we looked back that we wish we did back then. Our sex life during ROCD and how ROCD helped us and what it really taught us. We also talked about honest emotions and thoughts about our relationship, big advice and realization for being in a secure, safe, long term relationship, toxic and red flag issues, and a lot of honesty and vulnerability about that and most importantly, how we got to such a place of deep love and connection in our relationship, but how it hasn't always been like that.
Something I really want to emphasize on, if you're listening and you have ROCD and anxiety is that there may be a tendency to compare yourself and your relationship to ours. So, as always, I really want to remind you that this is our journey and it's important to take away what works for you and leave what doesn't.
You always have that permission, empowerment and choice. So let this podcast help you and your relationship and give you those moments of AHA that I so had in this podcast as well. It was really sacred. It was really honest and vulnerable. And it brought up a lot of different emotions within the both of us. And there were a lot of realizations that I hope you will find really helpful and that you will take in your journey with your beloved and your relationship, as well. As a reminder, we will be airing our last AIR program for this specific cohort. So May is the last opportunity for you to join AIR in this cohort, and this is going to be an important time to join specifically because we're going to be diving into communication, boundaries, needs, really creating more deeper intimacy, love and connection with your partner specifically for people with ROCD. Really excited to be leading you again into a new season for AIR. And I really hope that you enjoy this podcast and take what is important for you and your own awakening. Enjoy.
Kiyomi: Hey, welcome to the Awaken into Love podcast. I thought we talked a little bit before and, you know, like a little bit nervous, but I'm so happy to have you. And I know a lot of people are so happy to have you on the podcast. As my husband, who has been through the journey of experiencing and witnessing my journey with relationship OCD, I think it was back and maybe 2000. And do you remember when it was?
Joel: It was a long time ago.
Kiyomi: It was a long time ago. 2000 and...
Joel: Time flies by, doesn't it?
Kiyomi: Time flies by, especially when it's been a while since ROCD. I think I was about 19 and then I had my really big bouts of ROCD when I was 23. But you were there when...
Joel: It's over 10 years ago now.
Kiyomi: It's over 10 years ago, which is crazy. And we've been together for 13, 14 years. I kind of forget we've been together for a long time now.
Joel: I don't know, like it's so hard to track. Do you think so?
Kiyomi: It is hard to track.
Joel: Whenever anyone asks me how long I've been together, I just say, oh, since high school. It's just so hard. I don't even remember the total number of years.
Kiyomi: I don't either. I don't either. And I think that's one thing I do want to address for a lot of people who are listening and watching right now because we are on YouTube. Joel and I have been together actually since we were in high school. Joel was 15. You were 15, Joel, when we met, which is crazy. You are a baby. And I was 17. So I was two years older than Joel. And we have really navigated life together. I think that's something that I was really thinking about when I was thinking about this podcast in this video, we really want to be able to help all of you listening and watching right now and be honest about relationships. I think that's one of the biggest missions, at least with Awaken into love and my value as being human. I'm here to help all of you and assist you in a way not only with ROCD, but just in your life in general with relationship work, with awakening, with finding more freedom and transformation within your life. And so a lot of people actually, Joel, asked if you could come on to the podcast. I think I did a poll and I was like, how many of you would like to be on the podcast? And I think I had like the highest amount of people voting yes and the most amount of questions. So we'll go through all of that together today. We'll be talking all about ROCD as much as we can definitely remember, because it has been a while and we will definitely be talking about what it's like to be in a long term relationship and being honest and truthful about it and being vulnerable. I'm here to be vulnerable. I don't know if you're here to be vulnerable?
Joel: I know it's funny. I was like, "Kiyomi, we should start a podcast together.".
Kiyomi: Yeah, you did.
Joel: And then I realized I'm like, you already have a podcast.
Kiyomi: I do have a podcast.
Joel: For relationships. Yeah. So we don't have to start one. I could just hop on your podcast and then we don't have to start a podcast.
Kiyomi: You're welcome to come any time. Did you know I had a podcast? You did.
Joel: Of course I knew. I was like, "Kiyomi, maybe we should start a relationship podcast then I was like, wait, you already have a relationship podcast?
Kiyomi: I do. Well, for the people listening and watching right now, I know exactly where the people are watching and listening right now. Would you like us to do a podcast together? I'm curious as some people would be interested in that, because you and I have definitely talked about that.
Joel: I'll just come on here more
Kiyomi: or you can come on.
Joel: That'll be easier.
Kiyomi: If people want that, then you can definitely come in and let us know. But I think this is our first podcast together. We've definitely done some other YouTube videos before.
Joel: It's been a while.
Kiyomi: It's been a while. It's been some time. And I was, you know, before we started this podcast, I was really thinking about our relationship and I was thinking about, okay, we've been together for 13, 14, 15 years. And just introspecting on. Oh, the challenges, the difficulties, I think just being frank and honest, just even aside from ROCD, I think a lot of people don't talk about the challenges and the difficulties in the relationship. But then what I realized, too, and I'm getting emotional thinking about this, is it's been the most incredible thing in my life. And so I'm grateful. I'm so grateful. And I do want to put that out there that you and I didn't come to this place of, you know, having such a deep intimacy and such a deep love for one another just out of accident. You know, it's not like we were like, okay, like this is super easy. We don't do anything. We don't work on ourselves. We're here. And we have I feel such deep love and such intimacy in our relationship, honestly, because of the way that we've grown through challenges together. I mean, with ROCD, I'm just kind of curious how that a lot of that means for you.
Joel: Yeah, well, I think it's interesting. Life is full of ups and downs and life is both amazing and difficult at the same time. But for some reason, some people expect relationships not to be that way. And to only be good. So you only have ups. And I think, me and Kiyomi have embraced both the amazing, incredible times and the really challenging and difficult times that really pushed us to our limits, both in our relationship and with the struggles in our own individual lives. I think that's why we've been able to build so much intimacy and love and connection and friendship and care for one another, because instead of trying to only want good things to happen, we've...
Kiyomi: Which is not possible. Right. Is that possible?
Joel: No, of course not. It's like I said, with life, I think we've embraced both the ups and downs and leaned in together.
Kiyomi: Yeah, that's the biggest thing, I think that some people look at relationships and maybe people see us, maybe a lot of people like maybe some people like our on Facebook and then look at a picture of you and I and they're like, oh, like they're probably so perfect and have it all together. And they've been together since high school. And it's such a, you know, blissful love story. And I think that there's a lot of misconception with that. I'm so passionate to and I think for a lot of people listening right now know this, I'm really passionate about unraveling and demystifying beliefs in society that are really harmful. And I think one big one is that relationships are super easy and that if you're with the right person, then it's not going to be hard. And I call complete bullshit on that, because I think you and I are a strong testament to how we've gone through big challenges together. But every time we've decided to take that challenge and grow from it, I think that's a really, really big piece and then come out stronger together and everyone has that ability. So I think that I would love to go in because I think a lot of people listening and watching right now are interested because they're here with ROCD. The challenge that we really, really had when I experienced ROCD. Do you remember the challenges, the difficulties?
Joel: Yeah. I mean, like we said, it was so long ago. But, yeah, I'm just looking back, there's definitely some memories, like I remember at one point. And hopefully this is not too vulnerable for me to share because it's your story. But I remember, like, one time it was so bad that I was like, Kiyomi just go swimming, just to distract yourself. Because it's like you're so in your mind. And I was like, you need to just get out of your mind and into your body. So even though, of course, it's been so long and we've worked through it and we were through so many other challenges, I can't remember every little detail. But of course I remember it, you know.
Kiyomi: Yeah. Do you remember that specific one, because I think that that's actually a really strong memory that I have in my mind. I have two really strong memories that come up where I felt like you really supported me and kind of pushed me in some ways. I think the first one I don't know if you remember this, we were outside of your parents house and I was having such bad anxiety, like I was panicking, I was spiraling. And I think I was like so in my head. And I think that you were working out and I was just kind of sitting there and you said to me, you looked at me and you said, Kiyomi, get up now, right now, go and do like 20 laps in the pool, do jumping jacks. And I think that I don't know if you remember that memory. Do you remember that memory? You do. What was it like? What do you remember from your side?
Joel: You know, I'm getting more memories. It's like flooding coming up. Yeah. Like I remember our trip to Arizona now.
Kiyomi: Yeah.
Joel: And so it's only because talking about that, you look at all the pictures, it looks like everything was perfect.
Kiyomi: Yes, I've shared that too. I'm sure.
Joel: I remember we were hiking and Kiyomi was just having so much anxiety and I was more focused on Kiyomi being okay than, like, enjoying the beautiful hike.
Kiyomi: I know. So tell us a little bit about that, because I'm here to be as vulnerable and open as I want to and I'm completely, you know, open for really anything, because I think that most people here know my story anyway. And I have actually shared some of those pictures. And if you haven't seen it, it's on Instagram @withawakenintolove. And it's about the highlight that says my story. You can check that out with the pictures that Joel is talking about. But, yeah, we were in the way..
Joel: You're so good with social media. So I just want to get that shoutout.
Kiyomi: Really?
Joel: Yeah. You're so good at it.
Kiyomi: Thank you.
Joel: For anyone listening or watching, I do marketing for work, for my career but Kiyomi is so good at social media.
Kiyomi: And I don't ask you for any help.
Joel: No. Yeah.
Kiyomi: So there are some pictures in my Instagram and it was me hiking and I think that I had lost 15lbs. or something like that. And I think during that time I don't know if you remember, but I was like throwing up every day. And just first, I know for everyone who's listening right now, you don't have to be at this position to have ROCD to be in this debilitating state. But I was in a really, really hard state. And I remember that hike. We were with your whole family. They were ahead. They had no idea what was going on internally for me. What was your side of the story like? What do you remember about that moment?
Joel: Here's what I remember. I remember your whole journey of ROCD being really hard for me.
Kiyomi: Yeah.
Joel: But I remember that the more I learned and the more that we kind of discovered and started to see patterns in what you were doing. And as soon as I realized it wasn't really about me, this was much more about your own mental health and that it was just being projected onto the relationship. That's when I started to be much more courageous through the whole process and much more willing to work on it together. I think at the very beginning, I was just very confused. I was sad, a lot of emotions, angry, frustrated and very confused. Especially because before, it's not like every single moment we had. Like, we were totally fine as far as ROCD, although you did have other things that you were going through. But I think as we begin to gain clarity and begin to see patterns. That's when things got better. Like I remember very clearly. One time you started having anxiety around your health and your physical body. And I was like, wait, this is you're doing the exact same kind of thought process and behaviors, the relationship. That's when I was like, wait a second, maybe this isn't about us. So the more that we got educated, the more that we got clarity and also the more that you worked on yourself, that was a big one. You started really going to therapy the more that you started doing your inner work. It got easier to work through it and I think the biggest challenge for the partner, especially if neither you know why it's happening is that..
Kiyomi: Which definitely happened for us. I think we were discovering it together in the beginning because it was so new. And just keep in mind, everyone listening like this was over 10 years ago, like the information coming out now with ROCD is super new.
Joel: You look up ROCD on YouTube or Instagram there's a lot of pages and people talking about it. Unlike before, I remember we had to like there's a book at home that I remember. It's like a textbook on OCD. It doesn't even talk about ROCD, but it talks about OCD in general.
Kiyomi: I literally had to, like, put the pieces together.
Joel: Pieces together. Exactly.
Kiyomi: Exactly. Yeah. I was telling my friend the other day she was like, you know, how did you come up with Awaken into Love and ROCD? And I was like, you know, I actually had to put the different pieces of the puzzle together. Like there was no information out there, really. Maybe like one article. And I really had to be like, okay, this sounds like this, this sounds like this. And then kind of piece it all together. So I think you and I were definitely going through this period together where I was confused. You were confused. And then I was trying to be kind. I mean, we were just navigating the whole thing together. And I think that, you know, there's a plus and there's a con and a pro to that. I think that there's some people watching right now who haven't told their partners that I really want to validate, again that is okay. You don't have to. We work with clients and so many members who haven't told their partners. But I think, Joel, you and I, we were like navigating this whole thing together, which like, dang, we did good. You did good.
Joel: I think just to give you a lot of credit, sweetie, I think for you, you really stepped in to do your inner work. Which was kind of the foundation to all the healing, because even if I was okay with you going through this, if you didn't commit to really doing your inner work and understanding why you were having that experience and really. Doing the healing, we wouldn't have really gotten better, you know? Yeah, maybe it would have been a lot harder.
Kiyomi: Absolutely. What do you do just for the people listening right now, when you say do the inner work, what do you mean by that?
Joel: Definitely therapy, definitely learning. Now with the fact that you've created a community where people feel like they're not alone, like that is so powerful. That's like, WOW, because before you were you really felt alone. But I think being in a community, at least now where you have support, having a desire to work on it. I think journaling, meditating, doing all the spiritual practices that can help. I think all of the above is doing your inner work.
Kiyomi: Yeah. Do you remember times when you felt like I wasn't doing it? Because I think that that's definitely like a piece, right? Like, I feel like I had periods where I was just super resistant, like I definitely had periods. And I think I've had this within myself since you and I met where I've always had this, like, yearning to, like, grow. And I know you and I talk about that, but that's like a strong value of mine. But then I'm thinking back to, like some ROCD times. And I think that this is definitely part of the process, which is like the resistance. Did you notice sometimes where you were like, oh, Kiyomi, like she could be doing the work right now. And she's like, not or like, did you have moments of that where you noticed where I was like super resistant because I knew that within myself. But I'm curious if you know, if that came across, are you able to see that?
Joel: I have a feeling like that happened, but I can't remember it too well. If I'm being, I'm just being vulnerable and open with you. I think. Yeah, I wish I could help everyone listen anymore to provide some clarity around those moments, but I just don't remember those moments that well.
Kiyomi: Well, how about for you like resistance within you? Like, did you have any sort of resistance to I'm sure like maybe being in the relationship, like knowing that it was really, really difficult. Did you feel like you had times where you were like, I can't do this, this feels too much? I don't even know. I remember actually a conversation I think you even had with your friends or your dad or something like that where you're like, I don't even know, we're not even married or anything. And this is really difficult. Does that sound familiar to you?
Joel: Yeah. Yeah. I remember being outside of the apartment where we used to live in Philadelphia and we had a conversation and I was like, Kiyomi I don't know if I can do this. So of course, I felt very defeated. I felt very lonely. I also didn't want to go tell everyone I know. Maybe I spoke to a few friends, but it's not like I wanted to go blast this out to the world.
Kiyomi: Yeah, because, like, what can you say? My girlfriend is constantly having so many doubts. And I think that's the hardest thing about ROCD, is it feels so isolating because people with ROCD and even partners don't want to mention it to people because it's such a vulnerable thing. It's like usually if we hear someone saying, I'm having doubts and I don't think it's good. And she keeps doubting our relationship and it's been months, usually the other person's like, well, hey, maybe you should listen to that. Right? So I think that that's a really hard thing that really people really struggle with really silently. So that makes sense as to how you I think you said you talk to like a friend or like two friends.
Joel: Even I didn't have that many people to talk to and I think I felt very lonely. I felt very defeated. And, you know, it definitely brought up my own insecurity and doubt. I also knew what it was like. Maybe it was my intuition, but something felt like it. This is deeper than just a relationship, there's something else kind of at play, right?
Kiyomi: Right.
Joel: It can't just feel like there was something more happening inside of you that our relationship is not doing that great.
Kiyomi: Right. Right. Exactly. What I find so interesting. [00:22:19][2.3]
Joel: I held onto that intuition and I kept pushing through. And again, the more we look for any partner out there, if you're willing to share and if not, that's totally okay. And there's definitely love in that as well, if that's what you feel like you need. But for any partner out there, if you do, if you are aware of what's happening, just educate yourself and that really helped me at least.
Kiyomi: Yeah, absolutely. I think that what I would also love to ask you is like, what are some things that you really felt helped you like? How were you able? I was even just thinking about myself, like if I were in your shoes. And I think that what we've found working with a lot of couples and, you know, sometimes we work with couples. Alexis does a lot of couples work. You know, we see a lot of partners, too, and we honestly get a lot of messages from partners asking for support. And I have so much compassion and so much empathy for partners because I can't imagine how hard it is on both ends. But how were you able to find your own grounding and miss all of the doubts and miss having a partner that was constantly in obsessive thinking? I know you said you had a feeling intuitively. And just for people who are triggered by the word intuition, just use that as your own exposure work. Lots of kindness to yourself at that moment. But how were you able to really find your grounding during that time? Like, what are some things and some support you can offer. For some partners who are really, really struggling with that?
Joel: That's a great question, I think. By the way, these are really good questions.
Kiyomi: Thank you.
Joel: You come up with them?
Kiyomi: I did. I just came up with it in my mind.
Joel: You're so good. Well, why don't we think about it? It's not like one plus one equals two.
Kiyomi: Do you remember that one time I told you that my dad said that I should be a journalist or a newscaster? That's in me.
Joel: I know there's like some things where I'm, like from your childhood that just makes so much sense as to why you are the way you are now. For anyone watching, I don't know if you knew this, but Kiyomi also, when she was little, wanted to work at a hotel.
Kiyomi: Yes. Still do.
Joel: Still do?
Kiyomi: I still do. Well, you and I are thinking of owning, creating a hotel boutique together.
Joel: One day.
Kiyomi: One day. Yeah.
Joel: I feel like you also wanted to work with planes or no?
Kiyomi: No, I just wanted to be like an air pilot then on an airplane. Oh my goodness. Talking about air pilots, Joel and I still are working on our flight anxiety. That's something that you and I kind of both have, but we're kind of rewiring with that. I definitely want to work at an airport because I love traveling. That was one for sure.
Joel: Yeah, and there's some other ones. But anyways, I think to answer your question, what would I recommend to partners that are struggling? The foundation of all of this is doing your own inner work and self-love. So really just that the more that you can love yourself and be compassionate towards yourself, the easier it is to go through really anything in life and the more that you feel good within your own heart and within your own spirit. No matter what chaos is happening outside of you, I think the easier any challenge is. So if I were going through all this again, just like I did even 10 years ago, I remember I was going to the gym a lot. I was hanging out with friends a lot. I was doing things that made me happy. I was making music. To take care of myself and really just self care, self love and doing my own work. And the more that anyone listening or watching can lean into that, I think the.. I don't want to use the word easy, but I think that the...
Kiyomi: It's more manageable
Joel: and more manageable to go through the chaos.
Kiyomi: Yeah, what's interesting, and I don't know if this relates to you and just like maybe you can take a moment to think about this. But what's interesting that we really notice with partners is that in the beginning, there's like this sense of the partner being like, both of them. There's a sense of codependency. We call it Wholeness Give-away Syndrome, because the word codependency can have so much stigma to it. But I kind of remember, Joel, like in the beginning with ROCD, there was like this need for you to like, oh, my God, I have to fix this. I have to change this. Like, I'm going to do it. I'm going to change her. I'm going to. And so much compassion for people who do that. But there's kind of like a dependency with me, right? Like in a sense where you're like I was kind of like your life, too. And a lot of ways where you're like, I have to fix this. I have to change this. This is my responsibility in some ways. Do you remember those types of feelings? I remember you talking about how ROCD and we'll get to this in a little bit, but how ROCD kind of helped you become more dependent on yourself and not so codependent on me. Like it almost forced you to go into, like, your own wholeness and your own being and find different avenues of your own happiness instead of depending on me and needing to fix me. So I don't know if you remember that, but does that resonate with you when I say that?
Joel: Yeah. So much, I think. Especially because we grew up together, so much of our identities were one another. And for so long..
Kiyomi: And by the way, so really quickly, this is very common for people who are in relationships and have been with their partner since they were very young. I remember we were actually talking about this with our couples therapist once.
Joel: Yeah. Like, for example, let's say someone meets someone else and they're each 30 years old. By then, you have your own hobbies. You have your own life, really, and then you're coming together. Whereas for me and Kiyomi, we really grew up together. So everything was about each other. And I think about when ROCD happened. It really challenged me to lean into who Joel is outside of Kiyomi. And who Joel is outside of the relationship? And like Kiyomi, like you said beautifully, how can I come whole as myself and then bring that back into the relationship?
Kiyomi: Absolutely. Yeah, it really forced you in a lot of ways to like not solely look at the relationship as your own fulfillment, which in a lot of ways is a part of codependency. And it is not necessarily the healthiest. It's not it's not healthy. And I think that within the ROCD course, and also the AIR program, we do talk about the importance of coming back into our wholeness because a lot of people with ROCD do forget about the fact that they are a whole being. And it's not just to a person just split into two. Stuff like that. So that's a really empowering thing. But what I'm hearing from you is you had to find different ways to really fulfill yourself, to go back into your own wholeness. I'm going to go into a little bit of a sticky subject. I don't think you and I have ever talked about this on air, but people are curious, so I'm going to bring it up. I know that with anxiety. I know that with anxiety. You know, I know that with anxiety. What can happen is that when a person experiences so much anxiety and obsessive thinking, their sex drive and libido is so low. Like think about it, everyone, if you're having so much anxiety in the body and mind, is thinking constantly that there's a tiger in the room. There's no way the body is like, oh, but let's be intimate, let's procreate and all those types of things.
Joel: Anything else life like when if you're physically exhausted, if you're going through a lot of stress at work, if you're going through a traumatic event in your life, like you're not going to be at your high sex life.
Kiyomi: Absolutely not. And I know that with ROCD, I probably wasn't. I don't know if you remember, but that must have been hard for you because obviously it's a monogamous relationship. Right. And I'm sure there are some times where I know I was working with so much guilt. I was working with, like the obsessive thoughts not only about the relationship, but I was like, I can't even have sex with my boyfriend, who obviously my husband now. I can't even have sex with my boyfriend. I'm not even, like, turned on what is wrong with me. Like, how do I know, like, all of these coping mechanisms of guilt and shame came up. And I'm sure in some way you probably felt like, okay, because I know that physical touch and being physical is really a way for you to connect. That must have been really hard for you really thinking about that now. But do you remember do you could you kind of remember, like our sex life and our kind of physical intimacy during that time?
Joel: Yeah, I just remember that it's like from an outsider's perspective, you were going through so much, this is after your dad died. Like so much was happening. And I'm not sure if your dog passed away as well.
Kiyomi: I think so, yeah, but it was just a lot.
Joel: So part of me also felt like gave you the space and I think it just makes sense, like imagine going through a death, like you're not going to expect your partner to be a crazy sex drive.
Kiyomi: But I think that there's something to validate. Right. Which is like you as a partner go through like almost like a weird phase within yourself, which is so obvious, like even a sense of confusion are like, how do I navigate this? Like, even if you understand that your partner is going through a lot, there probably is a part of you that's still feeling a sense of grief or like loss or a sense of confusion, like even your own. I mean, like I think that even if we can have this understanding that, okay, you know, she's going through a lot. There's still a part of you. I'm sure that's like navigating, you know, that feeling of disconnection within you, which I'm sure I don't know if you remember, but you are probably experiencing something.
Joel: Of course, like looking back. Of course, it was really hard. I don't remember the specifics, I feel like I'm letting you guys down.
Kiyomi: No, not at all. I think that there's a legitimacy and I think that there's actually an importance. I want to actually spin it back into like looking at a store. Like you and I like the fact that we have gone through so much. And I think that ROCD is like...
Joel: Now, me and Kiyomi's challenge now is like our dogs, our puppies are fighting.
Kiyomi: Yeah. I think that there's like such a
Joel: keeps us up at night and we're like lacking sleep.
Kiyomi: Who's going to let us out to pee. Gus pooped in the house again. Is it okay he's pooping? But I think that there's a power and legitimacy of like transformation with the fact that, hey, like Joel, you and I throughout the ROCD journey, like I would say, it was hell for me. It was like I was living in this hell realm.
Joel: Like, I know. Like, you've done so much work with your, it was your experience. So obviously you remember it much.
Kiyomi: Yeah.
Joel: But of course it was extremely hard for me too.
Kiyomi: Yeah absolutely.
Joel: There were some really dark days.
Kiyomi: Dark days. Absolutely.
Joel: I remember going out to I think we went dancing and
Kiyomi: We tried to go dancing a lot. And every time I just got...
Joel: Kiyomi, we were just with groups of friends. We would just go sit separately, just sit down. Your energy was like it was defeated. I couldn't even have fun. And it was like, wow, it's really hard. But again, just continuing to lean into that self-love and self care. If Kiyomi can't enjoy this moment with me, that's okay. And I need to give her space. But how can I enjoy this moment with my friends that are here.
Kiyomi: I love that you don't stop your life because of me.
Joel: Yeah and it's just kind of easier said than done right? Like I'm talking about it, like it was just like, oh, I just had a good time without her, but it was a lot harder.
Kiyomi: We definitely had some fights, even if it was. Yeah, for sure. I want to correspondant back, though, like, I think that this is a really important part, which is that I love actually that you and I are having trouble remembering, because I think that that comes to show with every type of relationship and life challenge that you can go through hell. Like Joel and I both said in this podcast and video, like we both were in the hell realm, like we were really struggling a lot, especially because we didn't know what was going on. I think if we had a therapist together now looking back like maybe a couples therapist, maybe if we had the ROCD course and AIR program, then we would be a little bit better. But I think that it really shows that you can both go through such difficulty and such challenges as a couple and later on be at this place where you're just like, what was that about? Like, that's the resiliency of being human and that's the resiliency where Joel and I just like you, just like you watching right now, just like you listening right now. You can also take this challenge and actually create deeper intimacy, which I feel like you and I have. Right Joel? And I think that that's a really good thing to kind of go into. How do you feel like ROCD has helped you and I as a couple?
Joel: Yeah, I think that's such an amazing point, Kiyomi, like we've come so far, I think the fact that I'm having a hard time even remembering some of the darkest moments goes to show that it's also created space for us to have amazing moments. And it's like you're talking about sex drive and all these things. And like our relationship has flourished so much.
Kiyomi: And our sex drive.
Joel: And we've done so much
Kiyomi: sex. Yeah.
Joel: Yeah. You can't talk about it too much.
Kiyomi: We could go into it. It's up to you.
Joel: I don't know. I don't know. I'm like, it’s funny because I do so much speaking as well. But you rarely talk about our relationship or at least I don't.
Kiyomi: I mean, I don't either. I'm a very private person other than, you know, Awaken into Love for sure.
Joel: I will say so if I could go back in time. If you had asked me to get a couples therapist, I would have I would have had a lot of stigma and I think that's so stupid just being super upfront. I think any stigma around therapy and getting help is silly and should be thrown out the window because it is so valuable to get someone to just hear you and listen to you and sorry they aren't there for you and creates space for you. I'm sure most of the people listening are open to therapy, but for some reason there is some sort of stigma or around doing it with your couple. Like if anything, I think...
Kiyomi: getting it with your couple?
Joel: Your partner. If anything, I think it's a sign of how courageous you are.
Kiyomi: Absolutely. Absolutely.
Joel: It's more like, wow, you guys are willing to step up together.
Kiyomi: Warriors! So would you say that you would probably do not only a couple's therapist, but I think you would do individual therapy, too?
Joel: Yeah, of course.
Kiyomi: Yeah, yeah. And yeah, I think that that I think we can actually go and see that
Joel: We like let's say someone has a goal to get in more shape or let's say that someone wants to run a marathon and has a really big commitment. What do they do? They go on YouTube to learn about it and they maybe hire a coach and they practice, they put in the work and they go to the gym and they eat healthy and they do all these things. And I think relationships are the same way. You have to get help, get support. You have to learn. You have to try new things, you have to practice.
Kiyomi: I love that it's so true and we've talked about that too, that you and I have that value within ourselves of like the importance of growth. Do you think that my own journey with therapy and inner healing in some way allowed you to not have so much stigma around therapy? So my inner workings.
Joel: Yes, I was like, wow, you're like leveling up.
Kiyomi: Wow, that's really powerful.
Joel: And I was like, oh, I'm going to be left behind.
Kiyomi: That's really powerful, everyone. I just kind of went, oh God, yeah,
Joel: No, not left behind in a bad way, like in a good way. Almost like, wow. Kiyomi is getting to know herself better. She's learning to manage her emotions better. She's become..
Kiyomi: It Inspires you.
Joel: Yeah. I was like, wow, this is really, really amazing.
Kiyomi: So my ROCD in a lot of ways helped you.
Joel: Like me and you and talk about this openly, like I've experienced anxiety and panic attacks in my life, and I know you have as well. And then, like, even a few weeks ago, I asked you, do you ever get panic attacks anymore? And you're like, rarely. And if I do, I know how to manage it so much more. And I was like, wow. Like, I was kind of jealous.
Kiyomi: You're like, how do you do that? Did you remember the conversation? Do you remember what I said to you? Didn't you ask me how?
Joel: I think we were talking about
Kiyomi: This is when we were in Puerto Rico. I remember we were at the table. I think we were talking about my mental health journey. Which Joel's super curious about all of a sudden, I think, because
Joel: I want to get to that level.
Kiyomi: So my inner work and my inner healing inspired you. So I would say that ROCD in some way allowed me to do my own inner work and healing, which ended up pushing you to do your inner work and healing. What are some other things that you feel ROCD has really helped us as a couple?
Joel: By the way, you're such a good interviewer. You like you like bring it all together and you're like,
Kiyomi: My mind is going in the back, like you're talking like this question...
Joel: I like to distract us. I keep getting distracted. Now you bring us in
Kiyomi: talking about me sometimes.
Joel: I am. You think so?
Kiyomi: A little bit. But that's okay.
Joel: Um let's see. What are some amazing things? Well, it's like. Like what? I don't know if they say this, but you have to experience the dark to also be able to experience the light. And I feel like. I have this feeling, this belief now with Kiyomi that we can really get through anything, even if it's really, really hard and you're just going through that experience at such a young age and you losing your dad and your dog and starting to lay down spiral and all the other stand in your health and all this stuff happening, it really just give me like one of those huge benefits has been just this. This deep confidence and confidence, this deep faith and trust that we can get through anything that's been really powerful, I think it also humbled us in our relationship as to like, I think we stopped looking externally at what other couples were doing and not doing, and we started asking ourselves what works for us and how do we need to work together and how to communicate? I think before it was like, oh, well, this friend's relationship is like this. How come ours isn't like this? I think that experience really just invited us to look within and stop looking outside of ourselves.
Kiyomi: Which is the most powerful thing, one of the most powerful things that ROCD can teach you. ROCD is like that's one of the most powerful things I think that ROCD teaches you as you start to really question different beliefs and different stories that you don't have to carry any longer. And I think that, you know. We can start to notice as we do this, Joel, you and I, that we've gone through different challenges and we've grown from it and evolved that we get to write our own story. Everyone here gets to write their own love story. And it doesn't have to be like that checklist of, oh, I saw this and this couple did this and my friend did this and I should be this way. You're navigating it together. And I think that's one of the biggest misconceptions about relationships. And maybe we can just go into that. We can kind of move into that just with the misconceptions wise, because they're... Okay, so there's thousands of misconceptions about relationships, but I would love to hear from you. Like, what are some things that really stand out to you? Like what are some things that you definitely see in the media that are just so far from the truth of long term relationships that you feel are really damaging for people? I think a lot of people with ROCD really carry those stories because they, one, didn't witness a healthy relationship growing up. So they don't know. Or two, there's that lack of self trust. So they constantly go outwards to look for answers. So it can really be both.
Joel: I got you. I have a lot of good ones. I think one for sure that even up to now, it kind of frustrates me when I hear it, when couples are like, oh, but we don't fight, so we're doing really well or we don't have any conflict or we don't disagree. So we're doing really well.
Kiyomi: I remember that I'm just going to cut you off for a second. I think that we had that discussion, but I won't mention the person. I will mention anything. But I do remember having this conversation and your face like being triggered and all.
Joel: And I was like, you're like, they were like, yeah, we don't have any conflict. And I'm like, that's amazing. But if you did have conflict, that's also not a bad thing.
Kiyomi: That's okay too. Yes.
Joel: It can be human to disagree. It could be human to not be on the same page. It is human to be in alignment and then out of alignment and then come back. So I think one huge misconception about relationships is that things are perfect all the time and there's no conflict ever and there's no issues ever. And that's what makes a good relationship.
Kiyomi: What about the difficult feelings that people don't want to discuss? Talk about that. What are some uncomfortable feelings that are part of being in a relationship that are just part of being in a relationship like I know you talked about like that out of alignment. So I'm just going to kind of translate that for people who may not know out of alignment, like disconnected. Right. Like not feeling connected together or like feeling grounded in our individual body to be grounded together. But what are some other, like, uncomfortable truths or uncomfortable feelings that are just part of being a relationship?
Joel: Hmm, yeah, just other, like, misconceptions that you think people have. I think. Okay, I have a few. A lot of the time I think people want to work on relationships by making, by improving the relationship where a lot of the times the solution is in improving yourself first to be able to better show up for the relationship. So, like for example, Kiyomi asked me to and we had a really good conversation, really asked me to work on clocking out of work more and being more present in the relationship, and I could have done it for the relationship, but I had to do it for myself. I needed to want to clock out and work on having a better work life harmony and work life balance outside of whether or not it helped the relationship. I needed to work on that for my own well-being and happiness. And then as a side effect, it ends up helping the relationship.
Kiyomi: No, I was just going to say actually, now I'm going to have you go first because I'm curious,
Joel: I was just going to say that just to wrap up like. For something that I've noticed is a lot of people are like, oh, we need to work on the relationship and a lot of the times it really starts on how can I be a better human being first within myself, how can I do more self care, self-love, self exploration, just going through that all of that inner work to then be able to better show up for the relationship.
Kiyomi: I love that so much. That's a really big part of AIR for sure and also for ROCD course; is doing that inner work within first and kind of then doing that relationship work because like being transparent, you and I have done couples counseling before and we think it's phenomenal and we think that every single person should have it. And, you know, just like individual therapy and coaching, I think that it's really, really important for people to have that, too. But I love that. I love, love, love that you brought that up. There was something that I wanted to kind of spin back on. I don't know if you feel comfortable going into it. I think that there are a lot of people who are so terrified of the word toxic like this is a toxic, toxic trait in my relationship. A big one is also like it's a red flag issue. So if there's a red flag issue, I have to leave. A red flag issue would be like someone cheating or having narcissistic tendencies, being a narcissist or emotionally abusive, physically abusive, obviously. Okay, just a really quick disclaimer for anyone watching right now, if you are in that, which I know ROCD can spin, but if you are in a situation that's emotionally and physically, spiritually abusive, please, please, please seek help. We are not talking to people who are in abusive situations. That's something I just really, really want to add. But the red flag issue...
Joel: By the way you're so good at providing context and clarity, I feel like..
Kiyomi: So many compliments on this. I should do more with you.
Joel: Like I feel like you've been. I should just watch your content more.
Kiyomi: You should see what type of stuff we did. Joel and I both owned our businesses. But Joel, we never look at each other's business. Actually, we separate it completely. And I think that that's been a really healthy thing within our relationship.
Joel: And now I like experiencing it live. That's why I'm like so many people,
Kiyomi: We separate each other's business. Why do we separate from each other's business? I think that kind of spinning back to like the toxic red flag issue, I think that it's important to address that. I believe that in a society the word toxic or like a red flag is really thrown around. Like some people are like, oh, if you have any toxic stuff in the relationship, it's bad, you have to leave. But I'm going to be frank and honest. You and I have had some toxic situations in our relationship and a red flag issue recently. I'm just going to say. But the difference with that is I bring this up because I know that this can be so triggering where people like, oh, my God, if I have a red flag issue, it's toxic. I need to leave. I think that it's important. The most important thing with any type of situation that's like toxic, "toxic" or is like a flour, like a difficulty in a relationship is how you are working with it. And each individual person comes into their own healing with it. Right. Which I know, Joel, you were just talking about, like a misconception, is that you need to kind of fix the relationship fix out there. But it's important to come within you. Do you have any comments in regards to the word toxic or like anything that you want to add in regards to a red flag issue in a relationship?
Joel: Give an example of a red flag issue.
Kiyomi: Like having some sort of addiction or having some sort of behavior that's constantly going on and on?
Joel: That's really this aside from abuse.
Kiyomi: This is aside from abuse. Absolutely. Like abuse is not even a red flag issue. Abuse is an actual issue to that. You know, it must yeah. You must have help for this or like not being there.
Joel: like things are just really hard that are
Kiyomi: things that are really hard or could be potentially not good for the relationship. Yeah.
Joel: Yeah, I think. I'll go, I'll just circle back to what I said at the beginning, it's like life is full of such incredible, amazing blissful experiences. But it's also really hard and like we're all going to go through struggle. We're all going to have major challenges. We're all going to have. We are all going to have to deal with our trauma from experiences in our lives. So to expect it to be issue free and no toxicity at all, I think it's the wrong expectation. I think maybe a better expectation is like, okay, if there is something that's really hard, are we the type of people that are going to lean in and try to really work on ourselves and grow from this? And I think that's a better value to look for in a relationship rather than looking for the value of like this perfect thing that doesn't have any issues or challenges.
Kiyomi: Yes, I agree, I love that. Okay, so I want to go into some of the questions that were asked
Joel: I answered the question, well.
Kiyomi: You did answer the question like, okay, great job!
Joel: Like I'm taking a test. You know?
Kiyomi: Like that was the right answer. You did a really great job. Let's see. I actually feel.. Are you having a good time? So what are some of your favorite relationship advice? This is a question that we got asked in the Instagram community. There were like hundreds of questions. I was like scrolling through and I was like, okay, there's actually a lot of the ones that are repeated. But one that I really liked is what's like one relationship advice that you could give to someone we've given so much already, but maybe something else that stands out for you.
Joel: And nothing we've talked about already, you want like a new one,
Kiyomi: something new if you can.
Joel: I would say. I'll do one that's like a recent one that we just discovered.
Kiyomi: Yeah, oh, I love also that you added that we just discovered, because side note, Joel and I are constantly discovering new things and changing. And it's the truth.
Joel: That's true. Yeah, that's everyone was like, oh, you've been together for so long. And I'm like, I feel like we get to know each other every year.
Kiyomi: Yeah, every month.
Joel: Yeah. Like every month. I would say a new one that we discovered that I'm really pushing us to is to find an activity or a hobby that we can do together. That's really fun. And it's like it's not a lot of mental effort. It's just more like a fun thing to do. So for example, me and Kiyomi just signed up for a rock climbing gym. To do rock climbing together, yes, and we're both like, not sure how it's going to go, but it's fun and there's no real pressure behind it.
Kiyomi: So what is your advice with that?
Joel: I was just trying to think of something new, but I think the advice would be to find something that's more light to do together as an activity that you both enjoy. We both want to try. Which allows you to come together without so much pressure and without so much expectation. Like you're just going to do rock climbing or you're just going to go dance or you're just going to go, um, work out together or you're just going to go there's so many hobbies.
Kiyomi: Something together. You know what? I just had a memory pop up in my mind. Do you remember in Philadelphia when I had such a bad ROCD, we did acro yoga together. Do you remember that? I don't know if you know this. I was so obsessive. I was like, he didn't pick me up the right way. When he is holding me, I'm like, my breath is tight. Like, does that mean that symbolizes the tightness of, oh my God, it's like incredible how the mind could spin on to something. So I love that you said keep it light. It doesn't have to be anything that dictates what this is.
Joel: Yoga is hard. And I was like, Kiyomi has been doing this for 10 years.
Kiyomi: In my mind, I'm literally, like, he didn't pick me up right. This is the end of the relationship. This means that we're not meant to be.
Joel: And you know, I was thinking like I was like Kiyomi has been doing yoga for like 10 years and I've been doing yoga for, like, a day. This is like a totally unbalanced hobby because you're so much better than me.
Kiyomi: It was hard. It was hard. And I think I was so obsessive that I took that, like, difficulty as like a sign in our relationship. So when Joel says it's like an advice to keep things light, doesn't have to dictate anything about your relationship. Right. Like, I think that it really brings in a sense of like play and fun into it for sure. I also love that you brought up, like the hobbies aspect because someone did ask a question about that. They were like, do you guys have similar hobbies? And like, the answer is no. Sometimes Joel and I have, like, sat down together. I remember in bed and we've been like, do we like the same stuff? We're like we really like dinner dates. And we're like, we really like the office.
Joel: That's like food. Doesn't everyone like food?
Kiyomi: Probably maybe. Yeah, yeah, we're like we like the food we like, we like the office. And Joel and I remember we were really trying to come up with things that we like, which I think shows to you. I think that there's a misconception that you have to have the same hobbies and the same exact interests. And I call B.S. on that because you and I are very different, but very similar in a lot of ways.
Joel: It's funny because it changes too. Right. Like, yeah, 10 years ago, I loved electronic music and I was making music and I was really.
Kiyomi: And you were trying so hard to make me like it.
Joel: Kiyomi hated it. She was like, I don't understand this. And I'm like, 10 years later, Kiyomi likes electronic music and I'm not as excited.
Kiyomi: Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, I think I also I think I also hated it because there was like a resentment within me where you were like, I think I felt this feeling like you were trying to make me like it. So I think that there was that underneath there. But it's interesting and I love that love that you brought that up. Like, we're constantly changing. And I think that changes really give opportunities. Like without change, we don't have opportunities. And I think every change that we've had, you know, is a different opportunity like you and your partner, changing next month is going to give you a fresh new opportunity. And I think that's awesome.
Joel: Your advice, what would you say?
Kiyomi: What would I say for advice for a relationship? I would honestly say the same thing that you said with your own inner work. I think that when something within the relationship comes up, it's like a challenge that comes up. I think it's just a great way to invite a person to go into their own awakening and their freedom. I know I talk about a lot with you, you know, Awaken into Love. But I think that a lot of times our society just points out like if there's something going on in the relationship, we have to fix the partner or something outside. And I think that takes a lot of self responsibility away, which is really hard for people with ROCD to go into that self responsibility because there's a perfectionism in it. Like if I take responsibility for it, what if it doesn't work out? Like guilt and shame, but that inner work is really, really crucial. So that's what I would say with advice.
Joel: Yeah, I think there's this famous quote by this guy and he says, Don't wish things were easier. I wish that you were better. Yeah, I think the same thing could be said about the relationship. Like instead of expecting them to just find a better relationship, that's easier. It's. How can you be better, be better to yourself, to your partner, to the world?
Kiyomi: Absolutely, absolutely.
Joel: What are some other tips? I'm thinking like I'm failing the test now.
Kiyomi: You're not, there's no test here. Maybe Joel needs to work with his perfectionism.
Joel: Just kidding. Totally, totally kidding. Totally. I think so many little ones like, um, finding, uh. Finding things where you guys can have quality time, like me and Kiyomi started going on walks, there's a lot of different ones like, trying to have some sort of adventure every once in a while.
Kiyomi: What about love languages? Let's go into that for a second. Like you and I have opposite love languages, Joel's love language is physical touch, Kiyomi's last love language is physical touch. But I think my love language is actually I think physical touch is actually moving up because I remember this one time Joel had covid and I noticed myself, sorry I told everyone that, Joel that you had covid. I noticed myself...
Joel: I quarantined for like extra time. And I got tested right afterwards.
Kiyomi: So there was this period where I was like, really like actually craving your physical touch. But what's really interesting is that you and I do have different love languages. So how do you feel? Like we've both been working on that.
Joel: Hmm. Great question, I think. My tip would be to really understand each other and continue to get to know each other because again, it doesn't just it's not like you figure it out and you're done. It's it's you have to continue getting to know. You have to continue getting to know each other. And I think. A really big, important thing is more so understanding what my needs are and what my love languages are and then what yours are, and then finding a way to come together.
Kiyomi: I love that. Huge.
Joel: And how do we come together with our love languages? In a way we love that we're both we both really feel loved.
Kiyomi: So I want to add a little bit thinking about the whole needs thing, because that can sometimes be triggering for some people. And I love what you brought up because you said, from what I heard, you figure out your own needs, but then you bring it into the relationship and communicate with that with one another and try and figure out something within the relationship. I think that some people think this is my need. And if I don't have that, then that means I have to leave versus like you and I have had different needs at different times. Like, I feel like my needs have been different last year versus like this year. So it fluctuates. And I think communication is like a really, really big thing, which is why in May we're actually reopening the AIR program and we are starting to go into couples work. So we're starting to go into communication. We're going to be talking about needs. We're going to talk about boundaries. So if any of you are really feeling like you're really struggling in this area and you feel like you don't know how to work with boundaries, which are the most one of the most loving things and create can create deeper fulfillment of the relationship, or you're having questions about needs and how to communicate with that with your partner and how to really find and speak in a way that can create more intimacy than we are going to be airing AIR soon. Just wanted to add that in there, but I really love that you brought that up Joel because it's not black or white. It's this place where it's like, okay, this is my need right now and this is what I'm expressing. I'm going to bring that in. Let's communicate and find a way for us to grow together and see how we can support one another in that need. And if not, I'm going to maybe do a little bit of work. But it's really this dance that we're doing, right? It's not black and white.
Joel: And I'm not trying to change you and make my need, your need. So like, let's say my love languages, physical touch, I'm not trying to change you or look for someone else that has physical touch. Number one, instead of how we can come together and find like a line both of our energies, you know.
Kiyomi: Absolutely. And support one another in that. Beautiful. Joel, I feel like you and I could talk and talk and talk forever. And I think that this is probably the longest podcast I ever did. So I am going to end on this note, understanding all the challenges that we have gone through together. But then at the same time, those challenges really created such deep bliss, the greatest and most deepest bliss I've ever experienced in my life. As I said in the beginning of my podcast, our relationship, although at times so challenging, has been the most rewarding thing in my whole life. I would not take anything back with it. I could get emotional again thinking about it. But it is the most proudest. Is that the word most proud thing? I am the most proudest thing I have experienced in my life. And when I look back and when I go and when I die, it'll be continually, you know, the thing that I'm just so proud of. And it's because you and I have worked hard at it. We've worked hard on our relationship. So within that, what do you feel are the things that you have really loved, even though the challenges and even though the difficulties have come up in our life together, what are some things that you really loved about being in a long term relationship?
Joel: I think my favorite thing of all was, so I'm getting emotional too, and it just brings up a lot of feelings. I feel a deep friendship. You know, I think when you go through so much both good and bad with someone, you just build deep care and friendship that you just can't experience. On a relationship that is more surface level.
Kiyomi: yeah,
Joel: So I think we've developed such deep caring love for one another and that's my favorite part about it, I just feel like you're my best friend, it's not evenly. Like wife, partner, yes, but ultimately, you're my best friend.
Kiyomi: And we've gone to that place because we've worked at it and got into this place because of the challenges and we've gone to this place because even ROCD brought us here, honestly, and I say this specifically for people who are listening, who are like, you know, well, my partner doesn't feel like my best friend or my partner doesn't I don't have that much gratitude for my partner or I can't even feel those things. I used to feel those ways too. I really, really did. And I really want to show you we really both want to show you that ROCD was one of the big catalysts toward our deeper intimacy, our deeper friendship, because we chose to see it in a way where we allowed it to help us individually grow. I took a step in and I said that I'm going to use this challenge for my own healing and awakening because I know that this is coming up in order for me to find deeper freedom and fulfillment my whole life. And if this comes up now, it's going to come up in all relationships because I'm taking me to every relationship I have. But I think it really gives us ROCD and all the challenges we've had in our life, greater fulfillment, greater intimacy, greater love. And, you know, you and I continue to explore that together. I think it's just exploring a process that has just been, you know, this incredible journey.
Joel: I love you so much.
Kiyomi: I love you so much. I thank you so much for being here.
Joel: If you guys want me back, just let Kiyomi know. I can make a guest appearance every once in a while.
Kiyomi: Maybe you can, maybe you can pop in. We can talk about different relationship stuff because I think that you and I, we've got a lot..
Joel: It's really fun. I feel like we could talk about other stuff, too.
Kiyomi: We can talk about something. We could just talk about puppies. We can talk about traveling, how to travel together, how to clean together when you know all of these types of things.
Joel: You're thinking about getting two dogs and the second one is a puppy, just really think about it.
Kiyomi: This is a slight regret, a slight little Freudian slip.
Joel: No, I do not regret it at all. I just feel like I didn't think about it at all, guys. Yeah, I got my puppy, Gus. I didn't even think about it. Was that one?
Kiyomi: Yes. These are the things that happen in relationships. Well, I thank you, Joel. I thank you so much for being here. I thank you for just stepping in and being vulnerable. I think that vulnerability is something that we really, really need in our life. And I think that everyone is wanting and craving it because they feel so alone in the challenges. And that's the biggest part of Awaken into Love is creating this sense of community and education and the deepest, deepest healing possible to remind you that you are not alone, that you are just human. And honestly, that's right now. And all that you heard is just being human. So thank you so much, everyone. Thank you for being here, Joel. And thank you, everyone, for being here. I want to remind everyone that you are not alone and here's to being human.